Peggy O'Neil, PhD Serves Up Food For Thought

Video

Audio

Synopsis

Joe and Professor Peggy O'Neil discuss how growing up on a farm shaped her worldview and career path. She shares insights about the intersection of agriculture, literature, and education, drawing connections between farming, food systems, and the humanities. As a professor teaching courses on food, design, and philosophy, O'Neil emphasizes the importance of helping students develop their own worldviews and understanding of food systems. She discusses the challenges of modern farming, including land ownership issues and food security, while highlighting the potential of urban agriculture and community-based solutions. O'Neil also explores the role of food literacy, cultural connections to food, and the importance of building community through local food systems. Throughout the conversation, she maintains an optimistic outlook on addressing food insecurity and creating sustainable food systems through diverse approaches and community engagement.

Links Mentioned

• Peggy O'Neil at Western University
• Food For the Future Podcast

Transcript

JOE
Do you like Annie? [Holly laughs]

JOE
I don't like Annie.

HOLLY
I love Annie! it's...

JOE
Really? I wish I like Annie. Do you like Cats with James Corden?

HOLLY
No! I'll surprise you with my favorite.

JOE
Okay, cool. Mine’s Cats with James Corden.

HOLLY
I couldn't imagine.

JOE
Yours?

HOLLY
Honestly, the only thing coming to mind are my musicals. And I would say “Moulin Rouge” is my favorite story. You've got to watch it. You've gotta watch it. From web.isod.es, this is GrowAbility, a podcast at the intersection of urban agriculture, food security and community.

JOE
On this episode, I speak with professor, food literacy expert and fellow podcaster Peggy O'Neil.

HOLLY
Peggy combines her love of arts and humanities with human ecology, education and research. She brilliantly connects stories about the human experience to land that sustains us.

JOE
Holly, I don't think you've met Peggy before. Thoughts?

HOLLY
She's amazing! I love how she thinks about everything so holistically, like redefining our relationship with land and connecting with nature even when we're in urban settings.

JOE
But she's no slouch on the science side.

HOLLY
No she's not. She sees permaculture and urban agriculture being super important to food security and to the community in general.

JOE
It's true when she combines agriculture, literature and community to sustainability and resilience, She's bringing environmental stewardship and social justice as well.

HOLLY
Plus, she said, you were the most popular guest on her podcast.

JOE
It might be time for a repeat appearance.

HOLLY
I would say so. Speaking of guests, if anyone in the audience has guests suggests or a question or topic for future episodes, we're at Joe@GrowAbilityPod.com.

JOE
We so appreciate that Siskinds The Law Firm let us use their beautiful space for this interview. Thank you to the whole team there.

HOLLY
And now, without further ado, here's Joe's conversation with Peggy O'Neil.

JOE
Peggy, I can't tell you how delighted to sit down with you today. I love the way that you talk and think about agriculture, food, literature and how they all link together.

PEGGY
Thank you. Joe. It's a pleasure to be here today. I admire your work too.

JOE
We're going to record separate intros so the audience will hear your bio leading into this, but I want to start with your childhood. Growing up on a farm, how has that shaped your life?

PEGGY
It it hasn’t shaped my life. It is my life. And, you know, we people who grow up in settings and nature and the people around you affect your worldview. And so growing up in harmony with the seasons and with our neighbors, we help each other out in the rural areas that that's part of who I am and what I love contributing to.

JOE
love that. Take me back to the times when you were not in the fields and barns. What were you doing?

PEGGY
I was reading, yeah Luckily I grew up in a family that- We didn't get the Charter of Rights and Freedoms until 1982 in Canada, but the DNA of our oral history, of working with Indigenous people in our area and black history in London, and my dad was a great historian and wanted us to be sure we knew where we were in terms of our situation, not in just Middlesex County, but the world. And so I would get Indigenous legends for Christmas as a as a collection of books. I would hear him talk about things that his family had worked with, different people in the community on protecting different things. And then I loved stories. I loved Squirrel Nutkin. I learned economics about, you know, saving nuts for the winter, but also to try to not lose your tail by saying too much. And then the tiny, scrawny lion, because that's another story about carrot soup can make you unlikely friends. And I thought, oh, what unlikely friends could I make? So that's what I was doing as a kid, working in the farm and reading stories and could never get enough of it. So literature and reading did that inform and complement your relationship with the land, or was it an escape from the land? I don't know that it wasn't an escape from the land. It was an extension of the land because I situated our farm then, not only in Middlesex County and in London, but in Ontario and in Canada, and North- and, you know, I could place us on the globe. So I was always situating the broad context in which we in which we operate and grow food and, and develop life purposes and attain those. So it was an extension of it, not in place of. But what I loved was the stories of other people and what they were doing. And I think because literature first for me was popular, I developed a real and deep appreciation to this day for the everyday hero that I love Hollywood and I love great stories, but it's the people in our homes and in our communities like you and the PATCH and everyone really here today that want to get that message out, that that's what I love. The everyday heroes.

JOE
The best characters.

PEGGY
That's right. And they are characters. You can’t make it up! Especially in farming!

JOE
Especially in farming. You describe a narrative that moves from the land and grows to things like food, nutrition, ultimately beauty and poetry. What's the common thread that moves throughout all of that? The common thread really is unity for the human family. Yeah. So whether you think of our bodies, they apply all of the elements and principles of the arts, right? We have emphasis, variety- We don't eat the same thing every day. Same thing with nutrients. You don't want to only have protein, You want to have carb and balance it out with some delicious fruits and veggies and get your minerals. So even our bodies function on the elements and principles of design, but so does agriculture. When we think about food sovereignty and sustainability, underlying messages that the arts give us what those also show us. So I just really see life as a collection of compositions. And so whether I'm looking at a food system, a garden, a piece of art, it's just a matter of lens, not kind.

JOE
When you were growing up, many people owned land. How has that changed?

PEGGY
I think it's changed a lot. I think it's not only changed for farmers who, reality is, are getting outbid when someone does put their farm up for sale by international real estate developers, investors. And, it's very difficult because you can only make so much with pricing for commodities that you- for example, in Middlesex County, $3 million- in a lifetime, you'll never be able to own that farm and pay that mortgage. So I think that's challenging. But land ownership only isn't about farms. It's about individuals. And we don't have to mention or go over and over and over the cost of housing today. So we're in a generation right now where really, really, really this generation doesn't really know they're going to own a home. So what that means is gardening in the back and being able to have that deep connection not only to the land, but the seasons and the wildlife and the birds and all the things that having even planters in your back garden, even if it's only a patio. So I think it's fundamentally changing the way we see our world. And I think that the PATCH and programs like this talking about this helps us recover, that that's really something important. And it's not about land ownership. It's the way we define our lives. And so when we see it as a medium to that end, I think it heightens its importance. And it's why I'm really happy to be here today talking about it with you.

JOE
Well, let's talk about permaculture. How do you think permaculture helps our urban landscape?

PEGGY
I think it's fascinating, first of all, to go back and rediscover what is native to our area because it varies. Even an hour north, it's a little bit different in terms of even the color of the leaves of a certain common plant, because the soil may be more alkaline or acidic. The, habitat for the different critters that are helping us with pollination and, you know, fertilizer and all the things that they offer. I think that it's so interesting because it locates us in our time and place. But also it helps recover, that agency that we have in the building of the future setting that we will all operate in, because we have plants that are harmonious and not invasive. And so we can kind of reestablish what we already know works, which is the way the ecosystem evolved naturally in an area. So I think it's really important.

JOE
It’s very important.

JOE
You’re a professor.

PEGGY
I am.

JOE
what you teach?

PEGGY
I teach a lot of things, but the common thread across it all really is, the humanities in everyday life. So really looking at our lives as works of art and how that contributes not only to humanity but to others and this beautiful setting we have, which is planet Earth. So that manifests in, food courses. I teach design and housing and then philosophy that the common thread is the humanities in everyday life.

JOE
Would that be the one thing that you would like your students to take away, or is there something that you hope every student takes away?

PEGGY
What I hope every student takes away is, a stronger commitment to their own worldview.

JOE
Right.

PEGGY
Because, the things that I teach, are backed deeply by a concept of what a human being is. And we've heard a lot about being consumers, and we've heard a lot about, you know, strong political forces. And we hear a lot about all these environmental causes that make us, less free in our own lives. But everyone has a vote as a citizen and a dollar as a consumer, and they're really powerful. And so if they can recover what they want for the world through the things that we talk about and the way I design, even evaluation, I don't have any, like, true false short answer or final exam classes. And the payoff of not having that, you know, 40% midterm, 60% final is they work really hard throughout the term and they've got to be fully present every class. But, my course outlines show that they value that. And, that there have been times and I'm not kidding. And it's really not because of me, but we we they clap at the end of class. I know that sounds out of this world, but it's the contribution that they've made and they realize, oh my gosh, a recovery of my own viewpoint. Yeah, I'm going to do this. And so that's what I want for them.

JOE
And they need that. They’re our future leaders.

PEGGY
Right.

JOE
And what they're up against is they're up against industrialized processed food.

PEGGY
Right.

JOE
This is what they're up against. This is what they have at hand to nourish their soul for many students.

PEGGY
Right.

JOE
What does what does that look like when you're teaching and how how does that impact looking at a better world for for our students, our future leaders?

PEGGY
I think it's central to looking at a better world and recovering other narratives. When we think of the arts, we always see those two masks. One is smiling and one is either frowning or crying. And really, those through human history as far back as even Aristotle, which is almost 2400 years ago, knew nothing about us sitting here today in this moment in time, but said, here's what happens in human life. And so remembering that there's that other mask with the story ends well.

JOE
Yes.

PEGGY
And that how do we do that with what we have to offer to the broad narrative, which is humanity and life on Earth. And I think that- and when we look for those other narratives, those times that the fates didn't win.

JOE
Yes.

PEGGY
We can find hope and we can find resilience and we can provide perseverance. And it's why I love The PATCH. It is so rock n roll. I'm dating myself, clearly, I'm from the, not just the 60s in the flower power ghost out Halloween costume, but I'm from the 80s, right. Which was rock and roll, which really wasn't just about hair, it was about the message of freedom. And so it's so rock and roll, what you're doing at The PATCH that those share with others, ‘well, if you can do that, what can I do?’ And we just had some international students come from South Korea. And, I was fortunate enough to participate in their program, and it was just so inspiring to hear what they wanted for the world. They hadn't met me. I hadn't met them. But our common dreams sort of were like, we want something more for all of us. And, their person that came with them from the university, I'll never forget his closing remarks at the final ceremony. And he was talking about not just rebuilding the nation, but rebuilding everything in Korea post the war era. And he closed with let's give peace another chance. And I'm right on board going, yes, yeah, I'm going to do that. So we have to interrupt these narratives, which is it is going to be a large corporation. It is going to be apocalyptic. It is going to be everyone in line for lab grown meat. I understand the academic and intellectual arguments for those things. They're being studied at universities, but we're all entitled to our own worldview. And my worldview is with enough connected hearts, we're going to rock this thing. And so that's what keeps me going.

JOE
And that'll change the food systems.

PEGGY
It does, because people start to think about what can I make, and do I have alternatives, which again, is why the patch is so critical, not just to this moment but to everyone, because it shows an alternative. And, you may think, okay, the patch, this is what they're doing. Okay, great social programs, but you've harvested thousands of pounds of of veggies. I've had them. I've tasted the herbs. I've tasted the tomatoes. I was lucky enough to go last year during harvest. And it's delicious.

JOE
Thank you.

PEGGY
So those things, those alternatives, those real things and recovering the love of making. So what can I put together? You asked me, what's my favorite thing from the garden salads. And then even when it's not growing season, the parsley that I've been able to, you know, have and freeze and, you know, put in little cubes that sort of defrost and I have all winter. So, I think that that's so exciting. And, you know, some of my friends are retiring and, and earlier, you know. “How many more years to go?” And I'm like, oh, I don't know. I'll probably writing something or talking to somebody. My last breath, you know, wait a minute. I just one last word, one last word, and then I'll go.

JOE
No stopping.

PEGGY
No, I don't see myself retiring either. I love the beach, but, I mean, I'm tired of that in a day or two, so let's keep going. This is exciting. This is exciting. We need you. We need everybody.

JOE
If we were to play the devil's advocate and we were to talk about food insecurity, and we were to talk about the status quo right now, processed food, is there an alternative? Can we address food insecurity in a natural, healthy way? Do we do we need to have one way?

PEGGY
I just think basic economics shows us one way is not a long term viable plan, right? We all, when we're putting away our RRSPs or our savings, there's a diversify our portfolios. We know diversify your portfolio. Which is why post-nuclear disaster which I don't think is going to happen. I'll be in line for my lab grown meat like everybody else. But, that's not my worldview. I'm trying to make sure that doesn't happen. And so I think absolutely, there are alternatives. Not only all the advancement, the ecological farmers, for example, of Ontario, but across the world, but also our Indigenous members of our human family, amazing things that they're doing and technology helping us, you know, some of the vertical farming, now that we can recover the water that's been used and grow spinach all four seasons that we we have, it all comes back to ideas. And I think the alternatives start with the ideas, which then get executed in the things that we're doing in urban ag. and, ecological farming and learning from the Indigenous members of our human family and also not wasting, you know, part of the problem is not the production side, it's the consumption. And we're wasting so much whether that's at an industry level or in our own homes. And so trying to reimagine just that operating basis. So that's that's what I would say to that. Yeah, I think we can do it. We can do it. Yeah, we can do it.

JOE
We can do it.

PEGGY
Yeah, we can do it. I absolutely, but I think it's a really important question to ask, because it's one thing to be very poetic about, you know, homesteading or what have you. And the reason why we don't homestead anymore is that we wanted to contribute to communities. We wanted to enjoy the arts. It was a real burden to create all our own food. So we know each other now, and someone might grow apples and somebody might do tomatoes and somebody might do whatever. But if we work together, I think we're we're producing. We're not- Basic principle of entrepreneurship is finding an area of low productivity and turning it into an area of high productivity. Our food system is an area of low productivity now because of its inefficiencies and waste, so.

JOE
But we can use it to build community.

PEGGY
Yeah, yeah, yeah for sure.

JOE
Having grown up in a rural setting and now being in an urban setting, do you feel- People use, you know, urban agriculture, but they rarely use the term urban farmer.

PEGGY
Right.

JOE
Is an urban farmer a farmer?

PEGGY
For me, I think that it’s, it's a tricky question because I am aware of people who work hundreds of acres of land. And it's a professional, challenging, commodity-based, Mother Nature not always on your side kind of area. And I want to honor that work. And I see new things happening in urban areas, and it's not home growing. It's not gardening, and it's not a hobby. So for me, the term, urban farmer, it's not, a difference in the role, but the scale.

JOE
Yes.

PEGGY
And so I would say, yes, we're unified by purpose, which is to feed people healthy food and, do it with all heart. And so to that extent, they're the same, but the scale is different.

JOE
I love that. It’s the scale.

PEGGY
Yeah, yeah.

JOE
How does urban agriculture affect both food security and independence?

PEGGY
I think that's a really good question because as we need to rethink... the footprint of land overall across the world and what is needed to grow land and- err to grow food. And we can be creative and innovative. And there's amazing spaces that are underutilized in cities. And so whether that's some of the green space. So that's old parking lots that the concrete can be removed and we can grow something, whether that's areas that aren't you know, really they could be park land, but they're not. And so we can find spots to put gardens and grow things. But also there's other really cool places to grow things in the city. And two I can think of is rooftops.

JOE
Absolutely.

PEGGY
We have a lot of factories that are either converted to homes or are being used for something else. And, there's one urban ag. program in Canada, in Montreal, Lufa Farms, And they've got 300,000, something like that, square feet. And they're growing enough veggies to feed a certain population of Montreal. It's like, wow, that's contribution. That space would have been wasted. We don't need to, waste that. But also, really looking at innovative ways to, use the space beyond the footprint that we thought we had. So vertical- There's some really cool vertical things even The PATCH is doing. So rethinking, rethinking... shape to depth.

JOE
Yes.

PEGGY
Yeah. Always back to an arch reference.

JOE
So, you know, we've talked about food security. There's also a component of food literacy. You know, we can assist in providing food for ourselves, for our community. But if people don't know what to do with it, then what does food security mean?

PEGGY
Right. And I think food literacy is, an area that we need to have more dialog about. And I think that we think food literacy is poverty. And certainly it is if you have $20, there's only so much food you're going to buy in a month with $20. So I don't want to detract from that argument. It's absolutely. But it isn't only that. It also is, availability of food, which comes back to urban ag. and local and community programing and, and not just food security, but sovereignty, which is the freedom to have the food you want, and the system is in which it was produced aligns with your values. You can have $1,000 in your pocket in certain parts of Northern Ontario, and you're not getting an orange. There isn't one there to buy. So that's not poverty. So food accessibility is part of food security, but also education. There are people who are very affluent and, colleagues that are still in clinical practice. They're not nourished because they don't have the education. They don't know what the best thing is or, because they're affluent, they're buying whatever the next thing- the market has said, do this, and then they're getting a nutrient imbalance in their bodies. And so it's education not just money and access. But then the fourth factor really is, is, culture that we're able to have the food, that we want to eat that is, part of our, you know, intangible heritage and that we start to think about widening availability of that. So I think for me, that's the full frame of food security. How does urban ag. fit into that? All of the above, right? In terms of people can see that it's there. And in my experience, and I can't speak unilaterally, family members of my family who are, very busy and going generally to, mainstream food sources, talking about the increase in food prices. And I have to tell you, I really haven't noticed that because it's been fairly stable. I'm buying at farmers markets and from local growers and from producers and I honestly, I, I haven't have a hundreds of dollars jump in my grocery bill. It's been relatively stable. So I think that as we start to really look into these narratives and really, really see, who started them, is it true? Are there alternatives that that can change things? So I believe it's deeply connected to food security and beyond food security, that food sovereignty, which is that freedom piece and that creative element that's deeply culturally and, and values based, aligned.

JOE
And there's a connection there.

PEGGY
Yeah. There's a connection going to a farmer's market, going directly to the farmer. You're you're building community.

PEGGY
We are.

JOE
And something that, you know, we try to do with urban agriculture, we're trying to build a community.

PEGGY
Right.

JOE
It's how we met.

PEGGY
Right! I know, I know, it's so exciting.

JOE
And does that does that play into to your work, urban agriculture in the development of community as a as a catalyst?

PEGGY
Absolutely. You cannot separate them, right? It's it's it's just a different way of looking at life. My daughter is, in her 20s now, and, she will not work on a Saturday. They know, schedule her any time, but not on a Saturday, because she will not miss market day. And we start the day. And it's not just going out to see what's in season, as you know. Do you feel a little reticent that summer is over and we're moving into fall? No, because the squash and the pumpkins and the apples are pulling us forward. And when you do that every single week and, you know, every single week, the person that makes the bread, You know, ‘Oh, hi, what have you got?’ You know, you hear about how the sourdough has proofed that week because of what's happening with the humidity and the seas- I just wouldn't miss it. And so you cannot separate community from local food if they're one and the same. And it's like you can't separate a great work of art from the artist. That's and to move away back to the my earlier theme of the great works of art are not always the masterpieces that are in the museums. Certainly they are, but they're the masterpieces of every day. That's the bread. It's the tomatoes that were grown. It was the love that went into it. Right?

JOE
That's right.

PEGGY
And so that's what I think is the most important part of the story.

JOE
I agree with that. What's the most important thing that you've learned from the land?

PEGGY
That time tells on us all. [Both laugh]

JOE
For good or for bad.

PEGGY
Right, right. And so whether that's when, you know, from a farm, whether you're plowing a field and you walk through the field and you can see, you know, pieces of, of China or arrowheads of who, who lived there across the history, or whether that's before crop rotation challenges with soil and it not regenerating. And so I think that, yeah, that's the most important thing I learned from the land. But also... harmony. the land is different in the winter than it is in the spring than it is in the summer. And so really looking at the cycles of our own lives that way and, just being really oriented, you know, feet on the ground. you hear people say that, you know, keep your feet on the ground, which means, you know, don't don't get too lost in, in space or what have you. And so I've learned that from the land as well.

JOE
We've covered a lot. We have anything that you wanted to talk about that we missed?

PEGGY
I think you covered it all. What a range of, you know, across the food system. You did a fabulous job. Other than, you know, I would like to ask you questions, but I know that's not what this interview is about.

JOE
It's. It's okay. I'm getting a thumbs up.

PEGGY
You are getting a thumbs up. Okay? I mean, I told you that, you know, born in the 60s, you know, all that sort of flower power era and and, you know, rock and roll in the 80s, as a teenager. What what motivated you to create The PATCH and just, like, power through all the things you need to, to get to the moment that you did.

JOE
So rock n roll is, is is a part of it actually, a little bit of punk rock.

PEGGY
Okay.

JOE
A little bit. And to me, punk rock is looking at people and people coming together at an individual level. You know, I, I grew up with my, my friends and my, my cousins and, I saw that they, that punk rock was it was a unifier was, we were a bunch of misfits. Right. So we came together to appreciate each other, to appreciate each other's time, to do things. Whether the bands were good or bad. You know, it was that was the catalyst for me to actually get into social services because it it allowed it taught me to see people on an individual level.

PEGGY
Right.

JOE
Which inspired me to do this for a living. So it was it was punk rock. So I don't- it's not officially - The PATCH isn’t officially a punk rock farm, right? There's a little bit of punk rock in it,

PEGGY
The message.

JOE
and punk rock is rock and roll.

PEGGY
There you go! The message, the message, right, that it's not all about you and that we're happier together.

JOE
We're happier together

PEGGY
I love it, I love it.

JOE
Peggy, what keeps you growing?

PEGGY
Interviews like this! The- knowing that it'll go out into the world, someone will hear it that needs that message in that exact moment that they heard it and that that contributes to that, forward motion that we need to really bring change, that we we absolutely can. We're living in a time where we can produce enough food to feed everyone. We can have enough housing for everybody. And that we don't means we just need to look farther and try harder.

JOE
Yes. Where can people find out about your work online? Western University. I'm in the School of Food Nutrition Sciences under Faculty of Health Sciences. And so Peggy O'Neil, food nutrition, you'll find me. And, yeah, stay tuned because I have some other big things planned, too.

JOE
Awesome. We will.

PEGGY
Great!

JOE
Thank you.

PEGGY
Thank you so much, Joe!

ADAM
GrowAbility is hosted by Joe Gansevles and Holly Pugsley, and produced by Joe Gansevles and Adam Caplan.

Special thanks to this week's guest, Peggy O'Neil.

Lighting and camera designed by Kevin Labonte with production support from Oliver Gansevles.

GrowAbility’s production was made much easier with the help of Jesse Chen, Terry Fujioka, Zach Grossman, Zachary Meads, Leo Shin, and Deborah Camargo from Fanshawe College's Broadcasting, Television and Film Production Program. Thanks to Janice Robinson from Fanshawe for arranging for these students’ invaluable participation.

Holly Pugsley of Just Keep Growing provided the plants and made sure they looked great.

Audience and Marketing Strategy by Doruntina Uka and Tess Alcock.

Our theme music is Wandering William by Adrian Walther and can be found on Soundstripe.

Thanks as well to Hubert Orlowski for providing technical and audio engineering advice to help our podcast sound great.

Adam Caplan - that's me - is web.isod.es Executive Producer and Sammy Orlowski is our Senior Creator.

Special thanks to Jennifer Routly from Siskinds The Law Firm, for arranging to host us at their beautiful head office in downtown London, Ontario.

GrowAbility is a web.isod.es production and is produced with the support and participation of the team at The PAtCH and Hutton House.