Episode 6: Dr. Andrew Judge (Mkomose) On The Wisdom Of The Seed Keepers.

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Episode Synopsis

Holly joins Joe as the pair dive into their first remote interview with Dr. Andrew Judge (Mkomose), an expert in traditional Indigenous knowledge, ethno-medicine, and land-based learning. Dr. Judge shares his personal journey from an elite athlete to a scholar dedicated to ecological preservation and cultural restoration. He discusses the significance of his Anishinaabe heritage, including the profound experience of receiving his spirit name, Bear Walker, through fasting and dreams. The conversation explores the interconnectedness of Indigenous knowledge, land stewardship, and community resilience. Dr. Judge emphasizes the importance of embracing symbiotic relationships with nature and the wisdom passed down through generations. This insightful dialogue also touches on the role of vibrations in consciousness and the transformative power of cultural practices. Listeners are invited to reflect on their own connections to the land and community as they engage with this rich tapestry of ideas.

Links Mentioned in this Episode

• Dr. Andew Judge's Website: mkomose.com

Transcript

JOE:
Who's there?

HOLLY:
[Giggles]

JOE:
Gretchen? Did you bring my soup?

HOLLY:
Joe. What is that on your face?

JOE:
This, Holly? It's a virtual headset.

HOLLY:
And why?

JOE:
Why? Well, we just celebrated the completion of our first virtual interview with Dr. Andrew Judge.

HOLLY:
Incredible. I don't know if this is how that works, but, yeah. And while the crew gets Joe out of this headset. From web.isod.es, this is GrowAbility, a digital documentary at the intersection of urban agriculture, food security and community.

JOE:
On this episode, we're going virtual,  speaking with Dr. Andrew Judge, a professor, teacher, public speaker and consultant with a focus on traditional Indigenous knowledge, ethno-medicine and land-based learning.

HOLLY:
And we get into all of it.

JOE:
And more.

HOLLY:
And more, in our interview. Joe this is our first virtual interview.

JOE:
Yeah, we're planning on doing more of these in the next little while so we can speak to people from far and wide.

HOLLY:
Yeah, I really enjoyed speaking to him about his own personal story and how it's connected to where he is today.

JOE:
I really appreciated how Dr. Judge shared a small insight into the tapestry of his life, including his triumphs, his struggles, his shared knowledge with communities far and wide in his dedication to ecological preservation.

HOLLY:
Of course. Plus, I love being a part of this interview.

JOE:
It was so great to have you.

HOLLY:
Can't wait for more.

JOE:
As always, if you like this show, please tell your friends.

HOLLY:
And rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or like and follow us on YouTube.

JOE:
And definitely sign up for our free, fresh and nutritious newsletter for new ideas you can definitely chew on.

HOLLY:
And now here's our interview with Dr. Andrew Judge. [Upbeat music swells and fades]

JOE:
Hello, Andrew. Where do we find you today?

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
I am in Thessalon First Nation, which is about an hour east of Sault Ste. Marie, or Bawating, on the north shore of Lake Huron.

HOLLY:
Wonderful. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode of GrowAbility. We're super excited to speak with you about all your ideas and your important work.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
Thanks.

JOE:
Holly and I will talk about your professional background in our intro, but perhaps you could introduce yourself to our audience and establish some relational connections.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
Sure. So I’ll do that a little bit in my language.

HOLLY:
Yeah.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
Anishinaabemowin or Ojibwe. So, Boozhoo, which is greetings. Indinawemaaganag, Mkomose endigo. Mshiikenh nindoodem. D'eshkanziibi nindoonjiba. Thessalon Deda. Anishinaabe Ojibii'ige inini n'dow. N'wii shaaganashii bungi eta go. So I'll speak English now. And my English name is Andrew. I am- yeah, like, Anishinaabe and Irish. And I'm excited to share a little bit today.

JOE:
Thank you. Something that I am very interested in is the journey of self-discovery, whether it is by destiny, purpose or by accident. And how we develop into the person we are. Could you talk about your own journey to this point?

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
Sure. And definitely, you know, destiny, purpose and accident has been a huge part of my journey. I've had a unique life, and certainly my childhood was unique in comparison to, you know, many others who I've met. But I grew up as an elite athlete. And from the age of about six, 7 to 25. I was heavily involved in sport. The first sport I did was gymnastics. And it was really a very intense. I was training to be an Olympian, essentially. And from the age of about 11, I trained 20 hours a week. So whereas a lot of my friends, you know, came home and did things, I came home from school and went straight to the gym and. And that actually instilled like a whole bunch of focus in me and determination and will and sort of my earliest formative years were like, that's all I knew. And it's not till later in life that you kind of realise that might not be like the normal experience, although there's really no normal experience. And then from about 13 till 25, I did track. So, you know, littered throughout that is education. And I'm glad that I chose to go to university. I did an undergrad in philosophy, a master's in education, and a Ph.D. in education. And focus of my masters and Ph.D. was on, really, traditional Indigenous knowledge.

HOLLY:
Incredible. On your website you described how you dreamt your spirit name. Can you tell us more about that and what that meant for you?

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
Yeah. Wow. That's like in a very intense moment in my life. I was so I went fasting with some Midewiwin leaders from the region, from London, London, Ontario, that areas called like the Deshkan Ziibiing so now Chippewa of the Thames is referred to as the Deshkan Ziibiing and Deshkan is like something protruding out of the head of something. So could refer to like antlers like elk, moose, deer and other things. But as I've grown and learned, the Deshkan in that instance, it's the reference to the river and the Deshkan Ziibiing is a reference to the serpent, so the horned serpent. So some people say Antler River, but it's really the horn of the Serpent River. And even though I'm not from Chippewa of the Thames or any community in that region, I still grew up there. And, you know, in learning my traditional knowledge, like that's the influence, right. The river has the influence over the people. So I fasted in Chippewa and under the guidance of, you know, Midewiwin leaders at the time and I literally went out into the forest, found a built a little lodge. There's a number of protocol around all that. And I- for two nights and I guess like three days, went without food and water and literally asked Spirit for my name. And the night that I came out of that fast, I had a very intense and elaborate dream which I could recite, which would take me like, you know, 25 minutes. And at the very end of that dream, it was like a force of energy. It would take a like a long time to explain everything. And we don't have that kind of time. But this force of energy came right into my face and literally said in English, "your name is Bear Walker". But in a voice that is like commanding and powerful, like "Your. Name. Is. Bear Walker". And I woke up from that and since I have, you know, sought the guidance of elders and people who understand these things much better than I did at the time, which was probably 16 years ago, 17 years ago, and have since had that name translated. The name Bear Walker itself is understood to be connected with some like dark arts I guess, from the past, but for everything you know, that colonisation has influenced, we have to realise that there's always positives to everything. There's negative negatives and positives to everything. So I tend to err on the positive side of what that name represents, and it represents like an adaptability to energy.

JOE:
It's wonderful. That takes me to my next question. The person we are striving to be, person we want to become. Is there a guide for you to develop and grow? And what are the influences for you, Andrew?

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
Yeah. I've been thinking about this question a lot because. Well, I was just inducted into the Western Track and Field Hall of Honour, Hall of Fame, and.

HOLLY:
Congratulations.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
And it's not like I don't try to plug myself or anything, but.

HOLLY:
[laughs] No.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
I mentioned my gymnastics career, but I didn't mention really like this, like, really incredible track and field career and had it's like, I guess one of the most decorated athletes in Western's history. So.

HOLLY:
Wow.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
You know, it's like striving, right? And in that instance, you're always striving to be a better athlete, like stronger, faster, more intense, more fierce. And, after a certain point after I retired from Sport at 25 and went on to complete my masters and Ph.D., there's always striving towards like better education, you know, a better job. Getting more and more. And at some point, you know, I'm almost 40. There's there's a moment where you kind of like if you're always striving for something more, it takes away from appreciating what you have right in this moment. So that's where I'm at right, I'm now making this transition in my life to say, you know, how do I say I am enough as I am in this moment? I have enough. I am enough and I am perfect just the way that I am. And I think if I had the ability to go back, I would tell my younger self that. And I also I work with youth now. I want them to understand that. Because if you're always striving for something more, appreciating to the moment gets really difficult the further along you get. It's just about that pattern of behaviour. So that's where I'm not right now, like trying to really appreciate what I have and taking moments to have conversations with like with you folks and sharing what I've learned over the past, you know, 20, 25 years.

JOE:
Well, where I'm at right now is this. I'm thinking about teaching and you talking about teaching youth- and teaching is really about sharing knowledge. And I believe that inspiration is the spark for sharing. In- and I guess looking at self reflection, but what are, what are some of your inspirations when you're when you're sharing and imparting knowledge, perhaps particularly with youth?

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
So, you know, this morning, for example, I woke up and I felt inspired by experience. That's kind of a you know, it means something different to everyone. Or nothing at all in some instances. But for me, it's a connection to all of my relatives. So as Anishanaabe we believe when I say Indinawemaaganag as I did in my intro, that literally translates roughly to I am related to everything. And as a human being, I have learned I have a responsibility to all those other beings because I am the most reliant on them. And these are just some of the teachings and the wisdom that has been passed down. And to me, to take responsibility for not to know, but to teach, to share and to practice. And so I went to the water this morning to watch the moon set and the sun rise. And there are not I mean, in this life, how many moments do you get a chance to do the. So it was very important for me to be able to take responsibility for that aspect of the wisdom that has been entrusted to me. So I'm very inspired by my ancestors and very inspired by the sun and the moon and the stars and the northern lights. And the idea that my Anishinaabe culture will be restored because I choose to practice it and I choose to restore it.

HOLLY:
I really do like you touching on the practice of being present and enjoying what we have here on Earth and nature in general. I like that you have gone out of your way almost - and most people would look at it like that, going out of your way to experience something so unique and beautiful, but also very simple and to appreciate that. I think that's really beautiful. Yeah, there are several topics that you do teach that I was very interested in though. Indigenous knowledge, of course, ethno medicine and land based learning. We definitely want to talk about them in a little bit more detail. Plus your connection to urban agriculture and food security. But for now, what connects these ideas for you?

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
Yeah, so I've been very fortunate because I started- I was a professor at the age of 26.

HOLLY:
Wow.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
And whether it was, you know, whether I deserved to be there or not. Like it happened, like I wasn't turning it down. Certainly over the years and the thousands of students that have had, I feel like I earned my right to be there. And I've since really kind of left that profession. Although I still take on some courses. Yeah. So they're, you know, you mentioned land-based learning ethno-medicine.

HOLLY:
Yeah.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
And what was the other one? There's three, you said land-based learning.

HOLLY:
Indigenous knowledge. Just those three. So, yeah, I know. Sorry. That's a good, very wordy. But so many interests for sure.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
I mean, I guess what you'd have to communicate to your audience is like each one of those topics is expansive.

HOLLY:
Yes, for sure.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
I'll just sort of talk about them in sequence, starting with Indigenous knowledge. You know, I've been very fortunate to not only learn many and teach many aspects of my Anishinaabe knowledge. Like what I always say when I'm doing work with, you know, the Government of Canada or various organisations that I work with is there's no such thing as Indigenous knowledge, although it's a way to sort of communicate an idea to the lay person who, kind of, may not understand that, you know, there are 300 million Indigenous peoples across the world that represent something like 6000 languages and the Indigenous knowledge that I have learned to think of that is like a huge umbrella. And then the spokes of that umbrella include identities of Indigenous peoples with their own philosophy, their own language, their own ethno-botanical teachings, their own land based teachings. So I focussed primarily on Anishinaabe knowledge. However, I've had this privilege to go and learn from, for example, a Mayan Daykeeper. A Person who keeps- is the keeper of twenty calendars. And you know, person like that, it's hard to compare any, you know, any kind of knowledge that we have in a colonial civilisation to that. And that might seem like, well, of course, like, you know, you get PhDs and whatever field of study, of course there would be a person of knowledge and, you know, somebody with a PhD who has already met several people with PhDs, that can be true but it can also be untrue.

HOLLY:
Right.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
Whereas I would say somebody with Indigenous knowledge who- that knowledge is recognised and valued by a community or communities of people. That is always true. And it's the difference between sort of knowing something and having wisdom. Right. And wisdom to me is how, for example, my ancestors lived on the land and with the land. Right. And so that takes me to like land-based knowledge. And I think that people have this fantastic- little fantasy of making a word up. Fantastical. Fantasy...

HOLLY:
Yeah.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
About Indigenous peoples of the past.

HOLLY:
Right.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
As you know, often you hear something like, we were one with the land.

HOLLY:
Yeah.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
And I said, okay. Like, Well, what do you mean? And I actually wanted to find out what that meant.

HOLLY:
Right.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
And so I spent. The last 17, 18 years of my life trying to understand what that means.

HOLLY:
Right.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
And that has brought me to the feet of seed keepers. It has brought me to the wisdom of people who have literally spent their lives with their hands in the soil.

HOLLY:
Yeah.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
Not just saving seeds and growing and cultivating, but they're the what goes along with those seeds, those ancient strains that I have surrounding me in this moment in which I feel very fortunate to have, is this wisdom of how to plant those seeds in ways that ensure the viability of community, not just the human community, but all community of all those relations which, you know, I went to the water this morning to give thanks to.

HOLLY:
Right.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
So that brings you to, like, ethanol. Botanical wisdom. Or ethno-botanical knowledge.

HOLLY:
Yes.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
And ethno-medicine. You know, I taught a course in Belize, and I have to thank Dr. Andrew Hatala at the University of Manitoba because he's the first one. I met him, as does the whole auspicious circumstances of our meeting. He hired me literally like the day after I met him. And then.

HOLLY:
Oh My God. Amazing.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
He was like, after, you know, we wrote a few research papers. He's like, Hey, do you want to go to Belize for a month, and I'll pay for everything? It's like.

HOLLY:
Wow.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
I know, I know. Anyway, so I went and taught this course in a sense, taught this course in my my final course of my career at a, for example, Algoma University, where I just essentially retired from. I took 17 students with the co-professor, my best friend, Dr. Juan Guillermo Sanchez, and we went and sat with Mayan and Garifuna elders, principally grandmothers, and they shared with us, just like, you know, these these pieces of ethno-botanical knowledge related to the trees and the plants and the effects that they have on the body and how that has influenced the the orthography and the carvings into stone that they have on these monumental structures and how the geology- geometry of those structures and the architecture is just flowed into the wisdom of the stars. And that's the difference to me between a culture and a people of wisdom versus a culture and a people of knowledge. We live in a society today that is largely ruled by neoliberalism, which is essentially, if you boil it down to say, business rules, you know, money, money, money talks, money speaks and money is the- cash is king sort of thing. So in those societies and the societies that, you know, that runs through my miskwi wag wechewen, my blood memory, which of which I have both, you know, the colonial identity as well as an Anishinaabe identity, there is a connection to a people who realised that if I take care of all those beings and relatives, including the seeds and the trees, and not just take care of them as if I lived there in the- and this is oft the rumour, or the misconception or the stereotype I hope to dispel in all the work that I do is that, you know, Indigenous peoples are not just primitive peoples roaming around in the bush with a spear in their hand searching for the next thing to kill, as we are often depicted in colonial interpretations. In fact, everywhere where Indigenous peoples lived and have lived - and we'll see pre-contact - they designed those places on a scale that is really hard to fathom to the tune of being able to harvest nearly a million pounds of corn in a single year so that their civilisation and the civilisations around them could thrive. So this is what I hope to communicate now, is how do we translate the knowledge of that past so that people understand we have a lot of work to do to ensure youth today have a future because we're preparing the ground and the environment in such a way that their grandchildren can thrive from it.

HOLLY:
Right.

JOE:
You got me thinking. So I want to talk about the seeds of knowledge. Generational knowledge and maybe how that affects our current state of society. So you've described working with with elders to support Conscious Awakening. How is how is your work with elders? In that vein helped you maybe have a better understanding of where we are now?

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
Yes. So where we are now is the start of start there and then I'll go back- backwards is- and I was actually thinking about this this morning in my meditation because I haven't been meditating regularly, so it's easy to get trapped in the low vibration, into a very low vibration. And it's a very shallow place. And I think we, I see this often in young men, you know who- because I was there, I was trapped in like, a low vibrational place as a child. It was actually, I would say marijuana that pulled me out of that low vibrational state and the anger of, you know, like recognising what the world is really about as you as you grow into early adulthood. So in some ways it was an escape, but in other ways, and this is sort of like the important connection to the past, it's. For these medicines, these plants, beings. They have always wanted to support human consciousness. They have always supported us, and that's why, you know, within the human body or a number of, I forget the name in this moment- where the CBDs, like they can unlock your potential, and.

HOLLY: Yes, neuro-

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
Sorry, go ahead.

HOLLY:
No, it's okay. Go ahead.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
Yeah. I'm not necessarily encouraging young people to, like, use marijuana, for example. But that was my experience, and I turned out okay. And I and I've told this story before, like, because of the nature of which we perceive things like that in our current iteration of society, it prevented some of the relationships that I had with, for example, my family to flourish in that really formative period of my of my life. So, there are many, many other plants and and beings that Indigenous civilisations learned and it's like mysterious in a way. Well, it's mysterious to sort of like to the colonial view of how we treat science today. But when you, when the consciousness of the human is embraced, when the when the full intelligence of the human consciousness is embraced and the full capacity is nourished from a young age where your potential to dream and intuit and what we call like those six senses, perhaps seven senses, are trained. And start to recognise that the likelihood of finding these plants, just like that's how we sort of view it, because science discovers, right, rather than we evolved with these beings.

HOLLY:
Right.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
We didn't just appear one day and then go, look at this plant, let's figure out what it does.

HOLLY:
Yes.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
We chose that plant because of its effect on us. And that can go for every plant and every tree. So to try to think of the human as just one aspect of the ecosystem rather than the rather than the dominant force that gets to decide how to create laws and, you know, restrictions. So, like, I am not here unless those plants are there and we have a symbiotic relationship. And what I have seen from all the ancestral and technical teachings that I've learned is we learn to embrace those symbiotic relationships. And we evolved with them for the last several hundred thousand years at least. Because I don't know if I answered-

HOLLY:
No, yeah.

JOE:
 You answered it!

HOLLY:
 You covered so much ground. I have a few questions, actually. I really like the term. Well, I don't love it, but I. But I really like using the term low vibration, But I wondered if you could explain that a little bit more in your own words. And I do like you touching on marijuana a bit and speaking about your change and shift in consciousness. Would you be able to talk us through that a little bit as well?

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
Yes. Two. The first thing, is like marijuana to now, for me, it's like it's not something that is part of my life anymore.

HOLLY:
Right.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
I'm not just saying that to like, whatever - it's- there was a point in my late teens where it was no longer something I enjoyed.

HOLLY:
Yeah.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
So the point of that is, is I think everybody has like a capacity for these things. I think I reached a point at an early age.

HOLLY:
Yeah.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
I hit my threshold and it was like, it's I've learned now that it's a mind medicine. It's meant to be used in like, I forget the word in this moment, but it's not to be overused because.

HOLLY:
Of course.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
Start to control behaviour.

HOLLY:
Yeah.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
So that is connected to this idea of a lower vibration.

HOLLY:
Right.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
So I don't know if you or your audience has ever heard of cymatic; essentially sound as a way to change the energy. And of course, anybody knows this just naturally you start hearing your favourite song in which you do start to dance, you start to move. And it's hard. Not only you, it's like you can't. Not because the vibration of the sound moves your body.

HOLLY:
Yes.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
And we, each of us, kind of resonate to different frequencies. This is an important especially in with respect to my culture, because my culture starts with the sound and that sound is, like there's an original sound. And what I'll associate that to is your heart. So there's a word in my language, ode. And if you repeat that word. Ode. Ode. Ode. Ode. It gives us a sense of the Anishanabe language because there are certain sounds that connect us to the rhythm of the earth, and of course, for nine months, each of us and this is the common experience of all people, listen to our mothers heartbeat. And that was what formed, in part, our consciousness. And so now, you know, if you take the view a different level, there are vibrations that- cymatics is- essentially you take grains of sand. You take grains of sand, put them on a plate, attach that plate to a vibration, and that vibration, as its frequency changes, will change the literal physical shape of the the sound and into what starts out as simple shapes to very elaborate, complex geometric geometric patterns.

HOLLY:
Wow.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
And so the human body is resonating at a frequency. And if if we can use song, for example, which is really integral to my culture, I think it's integral to many cultures, to change the vibrational frequency of the person, like there's potential to unlock, and I have experienced this to the point where I dream songs now in the language of my culture, which I've never learned fully. So how is that possible? Unless the sounds and the stories and the practice of my life has awoken inside of me a blood memory which traces back to essentially, I mean, really the beginning of time. To that original frequency. So through sound, through song, through certain medicines. And it's really all in medicine and all things that you put into your body are medicine. As as a scholar in B.C. often says, is like, colonisation is delicious. That's hard not to kind of enjoy certain things like the sugar and stuff which actually calcifies your, your pineal gland and, and puts you in a state of like sort of, you know, like, anger, sadness.

HOLLY:
Irritability a little bit?

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
Definitely. And. And so it's like. And I'll often tell my students to take a deep breath. In through the nose and out through the mouth. And I have to do remind myself as well as well to release the tongue off the roof of the mouth if it's if it's stuck there. That that is not actually a normal state of being.

HOLLY:
I just literally took my tongue off the- [laughs]

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
And when I see people who are in that state, it's like that's the homeostasis of a colonised mind.

HOLLY:
Wow.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
In a colonised mind, it wants you to be in a high stress response all the time.

HOLLY:
Wow.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
And whereas, in an Indigenous consciousness state of mind, in an Anishanaabe state of mind, your shoulders are relaxed, you're calm and you're in touch, you're tuned to your body, the frequency of the energy of your body. And I will tell you this and like I don't talk about this too often, but you asked about it, and there are certain things that I am not forbidden but I can't speak about unless I am asked about them.

HOLLY:
Yeah.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
As according to our- the knowledge that I've learned and the wisdom that I am responsible for. But when you are able, when I am able to attune myself to those frequencies. That's where I believe like that quantum mechanics comes into play, like I can- in an immediate moment, attune myself to certain friends, family members, sometimes even strangers, where like I will and I've done this hundreds of times. So it's like, like I'm not trying to prove anything.

HOLLY:
Yeah.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
This is like who I am as a human. And my friends and family, people closest to me can attest to this, but it's like I'll reach out and be like, Hey, what's going on? And it's like, How did you know it's like, you know, because your energy came to me and it was like, there's I need to reach out. And so I think we need more people who can achieve those higher vibrational states, and that can change the vibrational states of the people around them so that we're not stuck on worrying about politics or religion or money or all those other things that cause a lot of strife in our societies. But we start to focus on the things that really matter, like seeds and family and the love and, you know, just really honouring like that vis-a-vis that- the look of the other. There's so much more we have in common with each other than there is that is different from one another.

HOLLY:
So beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing. I know we went through a lot. Something I am super curious about as your work as a Maya or a Mayan Day count, count keeper, you were saying. Can you talk us through this experience for you? I know you touched on it a little bit, but yeah, I'm looking for a little bit more.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
Well, yeah, this is- I'm writing a book and I'm like writing a book, but then you actually have to do the work of writing the book. So I'm kinda writing a book but not really, but I am because I keep and- for me as a storyteller, it's much easier for me to orate certain things than to stop and, because I also I'm a perfectionists are not a healthy perfectionist, so an unhealthy perfectionist. But I think to achieve certain things in life that can be good can be bad. Anyways. It was about 12 years ago, and and a colleague, a former colleague from London, Fiona, reached out to me and said, Hey, there's this really great professor that I have is teaching me Espanol- Spanish, and I think you'd really like him. He's writing a book of poetry called The Indigenous Message on Water, which is an anthology of poems that's going to be collected from Indigenous peoples around the world and to reach out. So, Fiona- hadn't heard from her. Why did she reach out to me two years later? I haven't talked to her in- so I reached out to Dr. Juan Guillermo Sanchez, who was not Dr. Sanchez at the time, but we met on campus at Western. We walked around. We shared a little bit about the moon, which is kind of an irony because it was a full moon at the time. I remember that date. It was this- sorry, January 5th, 2013. And we shared and, you know, he asked me to go to Guatemala. And I will say at that moment, I was one of the busiest people I knew and had probably like five jobs, and I'm not exaggerating. I was teaching at the college, doing my PhD, developing a program at the college, which continues at Fanshawe College. And essentially, I laughed it off and I was like, I mean, you go to Guatemala and maybe like a week and a half later- and what's really interesting is at that time, we both we spoke about two medicines, coca. So the coca leaves, which is part of his people's culture in the High Andes, of which he works with the Kogi peoples and I talked about sage, so what we smudge with in my culture. And at that moment, as we spoke, an eagle flew over us. And I you know, again, I laughed it off and then, you know, maybe it was like a week or two later, I was looking at my schedule and this trip was scheduled for February, so it wasn't that much longer. And there was this literal blank period of five days in my schedule where there was nothing booked. And every other day had these meetings. I was the graduate like student representative for Western, Indigenous grad student representative. There was a lot of things going on and I and I called them in and. I said, I think I need to go with you. And to keep a long story short. Through the dreams and through the physical experiences so, for example, right after we met, I went to the balcony of my condo in Cherry Hill there and a hawk through literally right at eye level, circled at the level of my my building and flew off, and the hawk was my guide. And I was like, okay, how many more sides that there's more things to do. I need to say, yes, I need to go. So I arrived in Guatemala and we slept in a hostel in Guatemala City where the most dangerous cities in the world. Scary kind of place for me at the time. Not anymore. And the next morning we were off and we had this whole itinerary. And that was a condition of of my travel with them that I need to know exactly where going. You know, this is right after I retired from sport and all- I was a very pampered athlete, as you know, imagine a very successful athlete. And and so, like I needed to know where we're going to be, when we're going to be there, how much time we're spending, how much is going to cost- every detail, and on that bus trip, not to be crude or whatever, but it was all of a sudden I had to use the washroom and I had to pee really bad. And I asked Juan, how long is this? I'm like Juan, how much longer do we have on this journey? And he says, he looks at me and- as he is, he kind of has this look of- and I can visualise thinking about it. And he says, I think about four hours.

HOLLY:
Oh man.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
And it was a chicken bus. And anybody's been there like Guatemala and Mexico, Like these buses are essentially glorified school buses. And it was literally packed like six to a row. The entire bus could not fit any more people on it.

HOLLY:
Wow.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
And I said, I'm not going to make it. Like I- and so I started thinking about what that looks like, about not making it to my destination. How do you go to the washroom. And because, you know, at that point, what am I going to do? Like, I you know, I'm in a foreign country, a dangerous country. We're not quite out of the city. And I looked at him maybe 20 minutes later and I said, Juan, we need to get out. And this is a man, remember, I've only known for one month, for one month and a few days, you know, And I go, Juan, If we don't get off the bus right now, I'm going to pee my pants. And he looked at me and he goes... [gives a worried look]. And the bus just happened to be slowing. And these boxes don't. It's not like a greyhound where you line up and you put you like there's a young kid, maybe 12 to 15 years old, whose- he has like a fistful of money. He knows exactly where you're going. And he's lined up the bags on the roof of the bus where you're going to get off. And we tell him we need to get off right now. And he looks at us and he's like, I could tell he was thinking, well, I'm not giving you a refund. But it was like six quetzal- to go four hours, it's like a dollar, you know? So we're like, It's okay, so get off. He throws our bags down and right around, "El baño! El baño!". Finally, this guy with a shotgun. And I'll never forget this because I remember looking as a 12 gauge shotgun and I've never seen one up that close before. And he just goes, "you go, go". So I go to the washroom and the next thing you know Juan is asking this random couple at this random bus stop that was not part of our itinerary. What bus to get back on. They're going in the similar direction. We get on the bus and within 20 minutes of that bus ride I get a tap on my shoulder and Juan says, "these people are on a spiritual journey and they want us to join them". And that would be the moment to forever change my life. Within an hour of that, I was in the presence of what I consider to be one of the most profound people on this planet at this time. Tata Ushula Hootenoch is an extraordinary human being. He's Kaqchikel Mayan. He is the bearer of wisdom that has lasted, I mean, perhaps many hundreds of thousands of years. He- essentially we would meet him, we would go and do a ceremony on Tumabach Mountain, which was not far from Totonicapán, joined by the president of the community who was a 25 year old woman at the time, who just several months before this had had seven of her community members mowed down by the government and killed in cold blood as they protested some of the mine- mining and the theft of the water that was happening in their mountains by Canadian companies. And we did ceremonies together and all of us, me from the north, Juan from the south, and Andreas Chu, as well as Reneé and Leslie. our tears were joined in that fire because one of the most powerful moments I've ever experienced. And believe it or not, when that ceremony ended, we put tobacco in the fire. And as we put the tobacco in the fire, a hawk flew down and maybe 60 to 80ft up circled us and flew off. And so, Kattah, after the ceremony invited us and he said- he essentially said, you want to take the blue pill or the red pill. Right. And he's like, if you take if you take the- I believe is the red pill, I can't remember the Matrix is so long ago. But like if you take this pill, he's I guess forever is like and I will teach you everything that I can in the time that I have to teach you. And we sat with him days later in his temple in the highlands of Guatemala. We meditated for a short time and we accepted his invitation. And today is actually the day of Q’Anil it's the day of the seed. So it was really important for me today to go to the water, to make my offering, to give thanks to the sun and the moon and to continue to practice this profound wisdom that I know, just like I don't even know, you know, like it knows me just a little bit.

HOLLY:
Well, so fascinating. Thank you so much for sharing. Switching gears just a little bit. You've described climate change as a narrative. And you introduced me to Anthropocene. Can you explain what it is and how it fits into your work?

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
Sure. Yeah. So a lot of big shifts here.

HOLLY:
Yeah.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
And the way my mind works like I have like files in my mind. It's like going into, you know, these kind of academic files now.

HOLLY:
Yeah, Sorry.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
That's okay. So the Anthropocene is essentially considered the age of man. It's the time when the effects, or the way of life, of man will be seen millions of years into the future in our in our stratigraphic record. There's arguments about when the Anthropocene began. Some people say in the 60s when sort of our use of carbon increased exponentially, but it had been increasing exponentially really since the 1830's, 1840s. I tend to consider the Anthropocene beginning at a time like I wouldn't say there's a specific date, but I'm going to tell a quick story here that defines the Anthropocene for your listeners and the extent of the damage that humans have done. I mean, whether or not you believe in sort of the some of the things that Indigenous peoples of the past or not, there has been an ecocide on this Earth and there's no one that can dispute that. Humans are responsible for the change in the ecosystem so dramatic that there has been no other change like it in the past. And the- potentially we have erased our potential for a future.

HOLLY:
Right.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
As a result of our human actions. And to me, it's about forgetting our responsibility to our relatives. And and so in between 1500 and 1600, there was a population decline in the Americas like no other in the history of humanity, to the tune of between 50 to 60 million. And that's what archaeologists and anthropologists and some of the other scientists estimate. I believe that it was much more than that because I think that there- the ways that they calculated population density at the time are flawed. I am starting to do research currently on calculating population densities based on the cultivation of plants. And when you look at the cultivation of plants, for example, use London as one of the sites that I'm looking at, the Lawson site, which is an archaeological site in the West End, and they estimate that Indigenous peoples there- so the Attawandaron as known by the Huron that's the Huron name for the peoples who live there. They self referred possibly as the Chonnonton, which is- there's some records of that: "The People Who Tend Deer". My ancestors may have called them the Ayadewat. We lived in relation with these people. But if they, what archaeologists estimate, cultivated 600 acres of corn- I did an analysis on just 400 acres of corn with a production rate four bushels per acre at 35 over the course of- ranging from 47 to 28, so in the middle there, about around- sorry, I think was 43 to 28. So 35 is an average bushels per acre on just 400 acres. And the result is around production of 760,000 pounds of corn every year, which could feed approximately 11,000 people. But they estimate the population to be only 2000 So if you roll that back and go through it slowly, it makes so much sense. But I'm going to put that aside for one second and go back to the year 1500. And in between 1500 and 1600, we have this extraordinary population decline. We know that to be true now because there was a study done out of University College London and they looked at the pollen records of essentially an area that we considered the Corn Belt of the Americas today. So the Midwestern United States. And why that region? Well, because the pollen record change of that region is dramatic, meaning that that area fallowed in a in a way that had never been recorded before. So how would a region that size, area the size of France, about 56 million hectares of land fallow? Well, it would only fallow if a way of life dramatically changed. Of course it did because the population declined. So. So. So what happened? Well, let's get into it. Often the story goes on. You know, Europeans came across the ocean, sailed the ocean blue, who are often depicted as hero types. You'll see the big chest plates, fancy hats, the knee up on the on the stool kind of thing, and and the hands on the hips and the, you know, the proud European discoverer of the primitive Indians, you know? And nothing could be further from the truth. The largest cities in the world, aside from maybe China and India at the time, where in the Americas what we call the Americas today. So Europeans who arrived - conquistadores - French, English, sometimes Portuguese. They were encountering vast civilisations. And then the story goes, you know, those poor peoples, you know, those poor Indians like they had. No- I mean, I used the word Indian not to be offensive. I use it because literally Canada calls us Indians. We're labelled- like that Indian status, the Indian Act. Those are still pieces of legislation that are active in this moment. But to be like sort of more politically correct, you know, Indigenous people, they were encouraging Indigenous civilisations, vast civilisations, expansive civilisations that had formed over the course of, you know, literally 1000 to 600,000 generations post the last glacial period and never had seen anything like it before, too. So to pose an image of, you know, these proud Europeans coming over, encountering these, you know, poor kind of real people roaming around is completely false. In fact, so much of what has been discovered by European society and science happens post-contact with Indigenous peoples. So you come out of the dark ages in Europe and into the Enlightenment at exactly the same time that you're discovering these Americas. And so they've created this very primitive image that is fully false. You know, Mayans- there had been Mayan civilisations that had rose and follow cities of 80,000 to 200,000 people that had running water in their communities before Europeans ever set foot in what they called the new world. So put their, you know, crunch that for a little bit because it takes a lot of time to actually position that into the consciousness of the colonial mind. And then we go to the story of how those poor people had no immunity to those diseases. The incubation period for smallpox is around 30 days. So from contraction to what was a horrible, horrible death, you're looking at a 30 day period with a longer, longest- the shortest ever crossing of the ocean at the time was 60 days.

HOLLY: Wow.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
 OK?

JOE:
Wow.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
And the average crossing of the ocean, you know, because there's no roads at this time, there's no- we- they come to when there's a big ships and they get transported by canoe, by our master canoe builders and our master singers and all the master medicine people that were part of our societies. So you want to paint a picture of Europeans being very, very primitive in their ways, encountering people with masters, you know, great masters, of which there are few who remain. And I have been fortunate to learn from few of those masters and and. And then they say, oh then we just happened to contract these diseases. Now, these diseases were spread. They were spread deliberately. And any historian worth their weight is going to say the same thing. But anybody who wants to perpetuate this idea of a primitive society that needed discovering will continue to perpetuate these very, very harmful ideas. Well, these diseases spread so quickly, just like they did in Europe, and killing more than around 30, 40% of the population of Europe just, you know, a few hundred years prior to to say that they didn't understand how these diseases spread, it would be completely unbelievable. And as a result of the death and die off in 100 years, 56 million hectares of land goes fallow. So this is the extent of what we were cultivating. These are the extent of the food forests and the way that we were living, building our foodscapes and landscapes to then bring and build a civilisation. We don't do that anymore. We just have babies any old time and we just, you know, we're sort of like in a period right now where people are really concerned about the birth and the death rate because there's not enough people to uphold essentially the 99% who aren't sort of the 1% of these rich people. There's not enough people, cogs in the wheel., Anymore. So I'm happy with that because maybe it's a time where we reconsider some of the things that we're doing. In any case, by 1608, 1610, when Champlain arrives in Southwestern Ontario, there's already a 90% population decline and the Earth enters a global cooling period because the fallowing of that, those regions were so dramatic, it pulled so much carbon out of our atmosphere that the entire earth cooled for around 200 years. And we call this now the little Ice Age. There's a direct correlation- it's not a theory. There's a direct correlation, and I mean, I can send you the article if you want one of the articles. But...

HOLLY:
Yeah.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
Between the following of this region of the Americas and the dramatic decline in CO2 emissions in our atmosphere until we start the industrial Revolution in the 1830s. So here's the whole crux of this. And some of that you might have to, like kind of relisten to because it is a lot. And it's a lot to transmute in the heart and the mind. But if we were somehow able to repeat this, if we were somehow us humans right now and all our ingenuity, our ingenuity, like if we were if we could somehow make 56 million hectares of land go fallow, considering that in 2023 we lost, I believe it was 15 million hectares of land to forest fire. We would only reduce our current emission output by about 10%. So we have dramatically altered Earth's ethno-botanical makeup. And right now, I'm trying to work with people who want to restore that ethno-botanical makeup so that, you know, we may not, you and I and our generations, even if we're not exactly in exact same generation, we may not see the immediate benefit of this. But this is the wisdom of Indigenous peoples, is every group that I've sat with and study and practised, they are concerned not about their own well-being. They're concerned about the future well-being of their great great grandchildren.

JOE:
Andrew, we have a lot of questions that we didn't get to, so we may have to have you back. As is the GrowAbility tradition, we have a final question. What keeps you growing?

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
I think my seeds. Meeting people who are interested in what I have to say and it's not like I want to make it clear. It's very important that I am just a vessel. Like I just want to be a hollow vessel for that spirit to work through. There are others who are doing this work on this Earth right now. Those those people need to be nurtured and nourished because I'll say this, sometimes a lonely road when you're the only one in the room who speaks like this. And I'm not saying do how I speak to you guys, how I speak everywhere.

HOLLY:
Oh yeah.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
And so it helps me grow is meeting those others and talking about these things and in the hopes that any part of what I just shared inspires someone else. And normally when I do this kind of speaking, I give my seeds. And I give them I don't sell seeds. I've never sold the seed. I've never bought a medicine in my life. So I give my seeds- the seeds that I've taken responsibility for, they're not mine. They're seeds that have been passed to me and I've taken responsibility for. There's a lot of knowledge to take responsibility for, a lot of wisdom. And it I grow when I see others doing it. So thank you for, you know, allowing me the space and time and for asking about some of this ancestral knowledge. Sometimes the only time to share is when you're asked about it. Of course.

JOE:
Where can our audience find out more about you and the work you do?

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
So I'm like kind of like a recluse in some of these instances. Sometimes I don't even know how people find me. I do have a website. I'm actually editing that website right now. I hadn't added that since 2019 and between 2019 and 2024, I've done probably like 200 talks. So I mean, my I know my name can be Googled and you can find recordings of me in various contexts in various capacities doing this kind of work. I'm thinking about like a social media presence. I'm doing research, literally the moringing I was doing on- I'm trying to start a podcast and this podcast is going to be connected to my book and the stories, the stories like the rest of this story of Guatemala.

JOE:
Yes.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
I said like, it's probably an I'm not kidding. Like if I were to tell that story four, five hours a day, it would probably take about eight days to tell the whole story. Wow. Yeah. So it. There's. I know I need to tell that story and get it out there.

JOE:
Yes, you do.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
It's like whenever- there's a spirit in the story. You know, there's this- what I'm talking about. There's a spirit of these things, and they're still alive. The spark of the spirit. They're still alive. And what I hope is that, you know, that spark ignites inside each person that I encounter and it ignites a fire for them to say, you know what, I'm going to take action. Like, I'm not just saying these things what I just said. I do these things as well. I also fail at them. I succeed at them and I fail at them. So we can't be afraid to fail and try to figure it out because our vibration is still low, but there are people who are trying to raise that vibration up so that all of us together- forget about your political affiliation, forget about this racial identity- like in unity, as as people who have a heart, who have blood, who have eyes, you know, who have ears and who have a voice, that together we can ensure that we go on and our great grandchildren look back and say, hey, you know, my grandfather, my grandmother, my auntie, my uncle, they took action when they knew that the time was- it was still- it was the final moment. You know, this is the moment we have it and we prophesized about it. And so we're in it now. It's not going to happen. Maybe we're in it. It's time to take action. And that's all that I try to share and and do.

HOLLY:
Wow, I'm so inspired. I know Joe is probably feeling the same way as me right now.

JOE:
Yes.

HOLLY:
There's so much to pick your brain on further. The more that I have heard you talk, the more I'm like, Wow, I have so many more questions, but thank you so much. We will put your full name in the show notes so that people can Google you. We were having a great time doing that and reading all about you, but thank you so much for joining us today, Andrew, thank you.

JOE:
You thank you so much, Andrew.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
Yeah, appreciate and let me know when there's no time. Maybe we can have a more, you know, like get into some other stuff,.

HOLLY:
Oh yeah.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
Maybe have people at the same time, and-

HOLLY:
Of course.

ANDREW (MKOMOSE):
Sometimes when you hear two Indigenous people speaking to each other, like without sort of like a barrier. There's things there like that can be really enlightening for people. Yeah. Thank you, guys.

CREDITS:
GrowAbility is hosted by Joe Gansevles and Holly Pugsley and produced by Joe Gansevles and Adam Caplan. Special thanks to this week's guest, Dr. Andrew Judge. Production support for this episode was provided by Paul Rodgers, Holly Pugsley of Just Keep Growing provided the plants and made sure they looked great. Audience and marketing strategy by Japsimar Miglani with support from Doruntina Uka and Tess Alcock. Our theme music is Wandering William by Adrian Walhter and can be found on SoundStripe. Adam Caplan, that's me, is web.isod.es Executive Producer, and Sammy Orlowski is our Senior Creator. GrowAbility is a web.isod.es production and is produced with the support and participation of the team at the Patch and Hutton House.