Episode 2: Dr. Gabor Sass Creates Landscapes of Abundance (Audio)
Episode Summary
Dr. Gabor Sass shares his passion for connecting people and ideas across various spheres of influence, emphasizing the importance of community involvement and sustainable practices. His insights into ecological planning and the impact of urban development on the environment, his work in permaculture principles and advocating for systems that respect nature and promote equitable sharing are firmly rooted in a desire for equity, belonging, and resilience. Gabor's conversation with Joe demonstrates the power of perseverance, collaboration, and innovative thinking in creating sustainable urban environments that connect people with their food and each other.
Guest Bio
Dr. Gabor Sass is a recognized ecosystem scientist, sustainability expert, consultant, university instructor, writer and community activator who has lived in London with his family for 20+ years. Gabor is a part-time Assistant Professor at Western University where he teaches undergraduate and graduate courses in environmental science, urban sustainability and biogeography. He has over 20 years of research and consulting experience studying and reporting on the hydrology, ecology and related sustainability problems of boreal, agricultural, and urban landscapes across Canada.
Gabor is also co-founder of The PATCH, a not-for-profit advancing urban agriculture work in London. Gabor's community building includes initiatives like the Food Forests in Wood Street Park and West Lion's Park and the Pollinator Pathways Project, neighbourhood projects that have introduced residents to urban agricultural practices and current sustainability concerns. Gabor is a recognized environmentalist in London, receiving the Mayor’s Honour Roll for the Environment in 2019, serving as London Public Library’s inaugural Environmentalist-in-Residence and appearing frequently as speaker and panelist at public events. Gabor and his family work at implementing sustainable practices into their lifestyle wherever they can.
Links Mentioned in the Episode
Episode Transcript
HOLLY
One word answer only. Okay. Elvis or Beatles?
JOE
Beatles.
HOLLY
What?!
JOE
No, I lied. I said the wrong thing.
HOLLY
What?! You betrayed me!
JOE
Glass Tiger.
HOLLY
I'm Team Elvis. Okay. From webisodes, this is Grow Ability, a podcast at the intersection of urban agriculture, food security and community.
JOE
On this episode, I speak with geologist, groundbreaking urban agriculture expert.
HOLLY
Nice.
JOE
Professor, community leader, and my PATCH co-founder Dr. Gabor Sass. Holly, what did you think of the conversation?
HOLLY
I love how Gabor really puts urban agriculture at the centre of climate stewardship, food security and being a community connector. Plus, I'm betting he's an Elvis.
JOE
What really came through for me was how he encourages all of us to play a role in our communities.
HOLLY
Right. So inspiring.
JOE
Before we get going, a bit of housekeeping.
HOLLY
If you like this podcast, please tell your friends.
JOE
And make sure to rate and review us and help others discover us.
HOLLY
We're on all the socials. Search GrowAbilityPod at most major platforms.
JOE
Make sure you subscribe to our free Fresh & Nutritious Newsletter at GrowAbilityPod.com.
HOLLY
And we want to hear from you. Email questions and suggestions to Joe at GrowAbilityPod.com.
JOE
Big thank you to Siskinds The Law Firm for hosting us in their beautiful office for this series.
HOLLY
And now I'm so happy to share this interview with two of my favourite PATCH peeps, Joe and Gabor.
JOE
Gabor. I know we get to work together at The PATCH all the time, but seriously, thanks for doing this.
GABOR
You're welcome.
JOE
The audience will hear your bio in the intro to the episode. So I want to start with our shared history. Can you describe how you became involved with The PATCH?
GABOR
Oh yeah. Well, it started like most good things, it started over beer.
JOE
Yeah.
GABOR
With you. In fact, I remember back in 2015 or 2016, we were having beer at the Root Cellar.
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
And we were kind of brainstorming of ways we could work together, and...
JOE
Good brainstorming session.
GABOR
Oh, yeah, and it led to some awesome ideas. We put those down in paper and we started to get some traction, send it to city staff and other people who we thought would be good collaborators. And we went through many iterations of the idea, which was I think the initial idea was to get a food hub up and running.
JOE
Right.
GABOR
For growing food, which we could give away. But then also to make it a place of urban agriculture training, skills development, and programming for participants of Hutton House. And, you know, we worked with different people. We we had various setbacks and, you know, things that things didn't exactly go the way we thought they would, but we persevered.
JOE
Right.
GABOR
And we kept on.
JOE
Yeah.
GABOR
Right. I just it just going ahead with the plan. We, you know, we both believed in it that this would be something of great value to the city, to our neighbourhood, to the larger community in London. And so, you know, with some element of luck or just maybe some some guidance by some unseen forces, we were able to move things beyond just the idea stage.
JOE
Right.
GABOR
And we had some help from City Hall. And then from there on, we were able to get the necessary permits and then over time, the necessary funding to get started. So I guess that's how my involvement in The PATCH project started, and, you know, we've developed a lot of things. Right now I do a lot of facilitation with various PATCH groups that come out to our various sites now. So. The patch has become much bigger than we originally, I guess, imagined.
JOE
Right.
GABOR
And that really speaks to the collaborative spirit.
JOE
It does.
JOE
Right. Between individuals, between different organisations,.
JOE
And here we are!
Determination, community.
JOE
Good luck.
GABOR
Good luck. Perseverance.
JOE
Perseverance.
GABOR
Yeah.
JOE
So outside of the work that you do with The PATCH, you're also really connected to not just your neighbourhood, but the city. You've made a real effort to be a good member of your community. Not just the KEVA neighbourhood, the Kensington Village neighbourhood, but also the City of London. And why is that so important to you?
GABOR
Well, so the way I kind of imagine, you know, my place in the world and life is that we have these different zones of influence, spheres of influence.
JOE
Yup.
GABOR
And I like to start with my own little, you know, sphere. So if I am interested in something new, like growing stuff, urban agriculture, well, then I like to try that myself and then, you know, working with my family and then moving out in these, these circles of influence. So I've, I've always thought that, you know, making these connections at father distances than just immediate family and immediate neighbourhood would be really important because I, I like to connect thing connect things.
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
Connect people and and also learn from others. Right. So that idea of of not just sharing your ideas, but then gaining and sharing ideas with others. And so I started doing that. Probably ten, 15 years ago, working with with and meeting meeting up with people from different parts of the city. You know, like one thing kind of leads to the other. You meet this person and they introduce you. One of the really beneficial things for me in terms of learning about how our city works, Like the city struc- the city.
JOE
Yeah.
GABOR
City Hall works...
JOE
Right.
GABOR
And how things get done in the city. So one of the best things was joining an Advisory Committee and there are various advisory committees at City Hall. And this one, the first one that I joined was the Ecological Environmental Ecological Planning Committee.
JOE
Okay.
GABOR
And so I was-
JOE
That's pretty cool.
GABOR
It was pretty cool.
JOE
Yeah.
GABOR
I was I was on it for for a number of years. And we were looking at mostly bigger developments and their potential environmental ecological impact. So I guess we were- we gave them the various committees and other perspective on things that, you know, make sure that you really hold the, the clients, usually the developer accountable for these these things. Right. There was another committee at that point, the Advisory Committee on the Environment. And I, I joined that committee, too. I was maybe a bit a bit over eager there because I filled my plate, you know, fairly full. So there was a time when I was actually on both of those committees. I learned- I learnt a lot from, from these committees, not just learning about, you know, as I said, the various processes, but meeting various staff and realising that when I started to work more with my neighbourhood in developing these gardening projects. Knowing these various people at City Hall really helped in developing those projects. So having input from these staff helped in- helped us in securing funding, securing the the backing of the City, of the various projects that we were developing like the Wood Street Park Food Forest and then eventually the Cavendish Community Food Hub, the PATCH project. And then of course, you know, there's- London has a really rich environmental community and, you know, things that relate to the environment and sustainability are really close to my heart.
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
So I say move in those circles. And I have I've met a lot of the the people that do amazing work related to urban mobility, urban agriculture, energy, conversation. So, so and in my work at these various levels of influence, you know, I've tried to develop these, these layers of connections to to the people.
JOE
And we talk about that a little bit because there are going to be people that are watching this and listening to this that are getting started right now in their community. And you mentioned that, you know, you've been at this work for at least 15 years. Have you seen change in the City for some of the work that you've been related to? Have have you seen there's been growth in both things like urban agriculture, environmental sustainability. Has it been you banging your head against the wall with these great groups, or have you actually seen positive change?
GABOR
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think there's been lots of growth in these various areas. Like let that be urban mobility or urban agriculture. Of course, some would say not at the pace that it should be undergoing, and we can always point to other cities around the world where they're doing a much better job but it's just the nature of of the game. Well, there's one specific example that I can point to in terms of my work related to pollinator health and improving the habitat for our pollinators. So this was work that we got involved in to the Advisory Committee of the Environment when a community member brought this up, that this is of of great urgency because we are losing our our bees, our butterflies. So we started working on it. And this was right at the point when the City was rewriting its official plan. And so we we got to advise the City on on ways that they could improve the official plan. And now there's- because of our work and then the committee now there's language in the London's official plan about London being a pollinator sanctuary.
JOE
That's awesome.
GABOR
So at the highest level. And if- and I read that- and I was also helping in giving advice to the City and the the entire plan from a sustainability perspective, and there's a lot of language, very positive language that that really supports the work we're trying to do in urban agriculture. I think London is one of the only cities in Canada that that has a specific chapter on food systems in their official plan. So there's high level policies that direct the city of how how it should think about and support food systems, mostly in the local food system. So it's it's it goes beyond urban agriculture, but there's specific language about urban agriculture. And I think there's even one little policy item that mentions food hubs that the City of London supports food hubs and community amenities like that. Right.
JOE
Some pretty cool designations.
GABOR
Yeah. So I guess this is the highest level, right of city planning. And then you asked me, like on the ground, what do we- do we see evidence that there's been change. And in terms of pollinator habitat, there's a number of groups that work on it. One of the ones that probably is spearheading the effort is the Pollinator Pathways Project.
JOE
Yes, a wonderful organisation.
GABOR
Yeah. And we've worked with them right as well at the PATCH and they've been able to inspire and empower lots of households, citizens, the residents of London and our organisation, just to plant a little habitat on, on in front of their buildings or even the boulevards in front of buildings, right? So you can see the growth of these habitats that the, that this high level policy calls for. Right. And even the City of London itself is changing the ways that they look after parks. So, you know, in Canada, North America, we love our lawns, right?
JOE
Yes, of course.
GABOR
Of course. But now Parks- Park Staff find their direction here from managers and and coming down from these policies, they're now changing the way they look at parks. And they're leaving some of the areas that have been mowed, as in more naturalised areas, for pollinators to come and enjoy the, you know, flowers and what have you. Right. So so things changes happening in urban agriculture, you know, which which we've been really working on through the PATCH project. I mean, we can see the new urban farms starting right? And just in the past eight years, really since the the Urban Agriculture Conference that this ACE committee helped kickstart. I remember when I first talked with Skyler Franke, who is now a city councillor, and she was in another committee - the Agricultural Committee, and we started working together and it led to the conference with that, which then allowed people to come together, share ideas and start projects. So Urban Roots London was founded by people that met at that conference.
JOE
Very cool.
GABOR
Right?
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
And it's really great to see that. Now things are opening up for newcomers, people of colour, indigenous groups. There's now an indigenous garden- medicine garden along the Thames River. Community gardens are growing- maybe not again- some people might have complaints and maybe understandably so. Right. Again, the pace and the nature could be always improved. But.
JOE
We can always do better.
GABOR
We can always do better.
JOE
Yeah.
GABOR
Yeah.
JOE
Let's talk about laying down roots: permaculture.
GABOR
Right.
JOE
When I throw that word out to you, what does that mean to you?
GABOR
Yeah. Permaculture is one of those words. Those magic words. It's been kind of with me since the early 90s when I first came upon it at the York University. And I'm like, what is this word? it's a system of design, but it's also could be like a way of life that values nature, that values people, and that believes in an equitable sharing of everything that's that we have, that we use as humans. Right. And that we be share with each other, but share with the natural world as well.
JOE
So that's into your work then?
GABOR
It totally fits into the work, like more specifically, if you look at more the gardening aspect of permaculture and then permaculture systems really value a long term perennial growing, right?
JOE
Right.
GABOR
So this idea of food forests or edible forest gardens, which I've been a big proponent of, comes out of these permaculture ways of thinking. Some, you know, the the founders of the permaculture movement were two Australians, but really the ideas that they've kind of put down on paper, they are really ancient ideas, indigenous ideas of the way we- Indigenous people around the world have related to the land, which is with a lot of respect and, and taking what they've observed from nature and putting that into their everyday, everyday life. The way they interact with, with the elements, with other other beings is, you know, manifests as ways that we might call permaculture ways. So at the Food Hub, we have not just vegetables, but we have some food guilds. Yeah, food guilds are like an element of a permaculture food forest. So imagine a fruit tree, but then you're also planting some other plants that benefit the tree. So maybe some flowers that attract and pollinators. You could put in some species like daffodils or some smelly plants that keep away other insects that might cause the tree trouble. So instead of just having an apple tree like in orchards, you know, where you really value high production, you want to grow a lot of apples, which is great. It might be not beneficial for other life forms. And maybe in the long term you are using more pesticides and other things, right? In a food forest you would have that apple tree but growing with other things, which then create habitat for other critters but then with great care and knowledge, you can still grow a lot of food for human use.
JOE
And connection for all things comes from respect.
GABOR
Absolutely.
JOE
So it comes from respect for the land, I guess, in this case.
GABOR
Yeah. So permaculture teachers would say that before we talk about anything that we do, like we need to talk about the ethics, how we relate to the land, how we relate to each other so that there's these foundational ethical principles. Earth share, like- sorry Earth Care, like respect for the land. We're learning from the land and using those natural cycles and building them into our systems. And then people care that some of us might not have the access that others do, right. And helping them then get the access, getting them access to food or shelter. Right. So building that into your permaculture system so when you know that, okay, you have access to land, you can grow all these things, but, but what about your neighbour who doesn't like how can you involve that at them? And this, you know, this this was these were some of the ideas that were also driving my work and our communities' work. So we need to share so you know that home food forest that I've started, right? I wanted to make sure that we can share that idea with others. So now we have the community food forests and in our our village in Kensington Village. So yeah, so permaculture ethics or basic foundational principles are again the, the Earth care, people care, and then sharing the bounty, right? So whatever you grow, whatever you learn, you want to share that with with others and not just keep it for yourself.
JOE
So you've you've mentioned in the past when we've been talking and and when I've been listening and reading work you've done, you've talked about five core concepts.
GABOR
Can you say a bit more?
JOE
So, okay, well I know we have a favourite word around the office now that you brought into our life. Okay. Bricolage.
GABOR
Yeah, so that's a nice one. That's, that comes from...
JOE
It's a good one.
GABOR
...from our common friend Shane O'Neill.
JOE
Yes. Design.
GABOR
Design. Yeah. And he came over and you know, and we are good friends and he's helped me kind of develop the, the energy systems and other systems around in our house and around our house and with some of the things I've been building, but kind of out of materials that just happened to be on hand, like the raised bed gardens, building it out of pallets, right? So bricolage is the art of making something out of nothing.
JOE
And it's funny that you bring that out because my next question is about a farm made of pallets.
GABOR
Right.
JOE
Cavendish Community Food Hub.
GABOR
Yep.
JOE
Bricolage?
GABOR
Bricolage at its finest example.
JOE
We are not talking about a space that when we began our work there was prime farmland. It had at one point been prime agricultural lands and it was, you know, mismanaged and neglected for for many years as far as being land for growing food and then.
GABOR
And maltreated.
JOE
And maltreated.
GABOR
It was a landfill there, right? A dump.
JOE
A landfill. It was a dump.
GABOR
London dumped all its garbage there.
JOE
That's exactly what they did. And then bricolage.
GABOR
And then bricolage. Yeah. So so it's pretty amazing how we are- we're connecting again to the roots. So there's a wonderful book by, I think, David Abrams.
JOE
Okay.
GABOR
The Spell of the Sensuous. And one of the ideas is that the land calls forth, the language that the people speak and the type of people that they become.
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
So if you have, you know, landscapes with mountain peaks, jagged mountain peaks and really inclement weather, you might have people like the Vikings, you know, really...
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
...I mean, good people. But more on the like, let's explore the world, because-
JOE
A lot of energy.
GABOR
A lot of energy. Right. And then other landscapes, different, like the shire landscapes by people...
JOE
Yeah.
GABOR
Anyway, so. So this landscape. So where the Cavendish Community Food Hub is on the the floodplain of the Thames River.
JOE
Right.
GABOR
The Deshkan Ziibi the Antler River. And it's been farmland for probably a thousand years.
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
Ever since indigenous people have used that area. So all all the flood plains have really rich soil. And they've they've used that to grow the three sisters.
JOE
Right.
GABOR
The corn, the beans, the squash. And when the European settlers arrived, they made they they drew maps and they drew they wrote on the map, "indigenous cornfield". So that's what it was?
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
And it was right in our neighbourhood where the community- the Cavendish Community Food Hub is, right? But it was neglected. It was mis- maltreated in a sense, right? And so now we've kind of reviving that idea again. The land is calling for for people in that area to want to grow food.
JOE
We're patching it.
GABOR
We're patching it up. Right.
JOE
Let's talk about patches.
GABOR
Yeah. Bricolage.
JOE
So, you know, the work that we've both been involved in together, the PATCH project. It's a pretty cool acronym, but patches are a big part of your work.
GABOR
Yeah.
JOE
And you've mentioned a few of them. For instance, you know, Wood Street.
GABOR
Right.
JOE
Now.
GABOR
And it- actually tyin- I'm tying in my what I've learned from my university training, which was and the ecosystem science and biogeography and they're talking about patches. Like landscape ecology is all about these patches that are used in different ways that are habitat for different species. Right? And and what we've done with our ecosystems. You've got me cut them up.
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
If we had continuous contiguous ecosystems, you know, huge woodlands and prairies. Now we've cut them up into smaller and smaller patches of ecosystem, right?
JOE
Right.
GABOR
And many species have lost their ability to live on those landscapes because these patches are become smaller and smaller.
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
And they're no longer connected. So a key concept is that then that is connectivity, like connecting up these various patches. So the patches in like ecosystems are. That idea that you could still you know, that even a small patch can be a habitat for smaller creatures, right? Maybe not for the bigger creatures. So just like bringing that into the realm of urban agriculture, you might not be able to feed your whole family for the whole year, but in a small patch - could be even like a balcony, could be even a counter where...
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
....you're growing microgreens and sprouts. Right. That little patch can become something.
JOE
A jar.
GABOR
A jar! That feeds you with really nutritious food for, you know, part of the part of the week, like maybe just a garnish on something. But you have that connection then to life, to food, right? And it can start with a small patch. And that's that's well, you know, we've been doing in the PATCH project is getting this idea out to all the, you know, all the people that we've come across with as- can you imagine yourself just growing, just maybe in a mason jar, just growing sprouts.
JOE
Right.
GABOR
But if you have access to more land, then you can grow a lot more like whatever kind of fits your life situation, right? And and then we connecting it up, I think is is that another element that the connectivity?
JOE
It is connection is everything because actually this community.
GABOR
Right.
JOE
And speaking of that, we're both involved in the Nathan's Urban Farm project. How does that fit or does that fit into bricolage?
GABOR
Okay. So the first thought that comes to mind is that these these tower gardens are something that we buy pre-assembled, right? So maybe not necessarily like a bricolage concept, but then we, we've taken the this concept of growing hydroponically and with a bit of research. So for me, this was all very new.
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
Like, I'm more of an outdoor grower.
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
And there's bias amongst outdoor growers is that you can't really grow food in a test tube or in a jar.
JOE
Right.
GABOR
But the more I started, you know, digging into it and learning, learning from Mona and Tim Deslippe and then, you know, which became part of the PATCH project, Nathan's Urban Farm. I realised the value of growing indoors, right? And it could be in a tower garden, which is, you know, a manufactured piece of equipment. But then there's other ways that you can grow without soil. So, absolutely. One is called the Kratky Method, and it takes just a mason jar. So we're just again, reusing jars that are lying around. And with just a bit of MacGyvering that bottle, we can set up a plant, let us plant or an arugula plant that will grow in about a month's time without- not much input from us. Once we've set up that jar because we put the nutrients in the water. And again, this, you know, this way of thinking, which is kind of connecting the dots and using up what's lying around, you know, this idea has now- it's become part of the programming that that we do at the orchard. Any any of the groups, any of the programs that we've developed, I've included this this way of growing.
JOE
And so we are you know, Nathan's Urban Farm is an innovative space. And, you know, how what would the sales pitch be if you were describing it to somebody? How would you describe Nathan's Urban Farm?
GABOR
Well, it's a very, very inviting, like, lush space where people can come and learn about how to grow food, how to harvest that food. And just hanging out even in the middle of the winter, right, it could be -20 outside. And you're in an indoor space, an urban farm where you still maintain your maintaining those connections to our food.
JOE
It's interesting and I completely agree with you and that's how I feel, the space. But if we were to write down an inventory list, it wouldn't it wouldn't look like that for people. But you're exactly right. If we were to- on our inventory list it was we had 14 tower gardens, which are plastic silos to grow food in them. We have a shelf in the corner. We have two plastic accessible beds. You know, it on- inside of, you know, what was an event space, and it has been created a space for us. People would, on paper, they would- the experience would translate very differently when when they arrived. And you're right, it is a lush space, but it is almost completely mechanical. Is this still an urban farm?
GABOR
You know, we could split the hairs on how we write, like of our language. Like if you talk to like, a big commercial grower, you know, they maybe they would laugh at that. But it's it's a place where we're growing food.
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
It's a landscape, like a f- you know- and bigger spaces lend themselves to be called the, you know, farming landscapes. Well, just like the community at the Cavendish Community Food Hub, you know, go we could call that an urban farm. These are smaller urban places, right?
JOE
Right.
GABOR
But we we are still honouring the urban agriculture- sorry, the agriculture processes, the needs of plants. Scaled down version of bigger farms, you know, less mechanised. But still, especially the indoor farms are- the Nathan's Urban Farm is more mechanical than the outdoor spaces that we have, places of, of food production, right? Because farms are places of food production, landscapes of food production. So we have that. But, you know, not all our sites we have the the more the community element, the human element, right? So there are also places of respite and relaxation. Right? Therapy connecting with plants just for their beauty.
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
Just just for- just honouring their existence and not, not just the fact that they're actually growing something for us that we can consume.
JOE
We're going to talk about connectivity again.
GABOR
Okay.
JOE
Talk us through how connectivity guides your work. Because you, I would say, are somebody that the work that you do resonates and it connects community both socially and ecologically. And I love that. It was it was what drew me to work on this project with you. So how do those things- how do they coexist with you? Community and connectivity?
GABOR
Well, yeah, they they drive. They drive everything that I do. Right? So this if you just focus on the word connectivity, you know, I started mentioning that, you know, the ecological literature is, is full of this, full of the use of this term because it's the only thing that can kind of save, save us and save the species around us...
JOE
Yeah.
GABOR
...is connection, because you have these patches that are isolated, so how do we connect them up? Right? And so ecological conservation is now focussed on creating these smaller patches or corridors, connectivity corridors that allow these species to move around. Now, in a social system, you know, we are adding different dimensions or layers of connectivity.
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
It's not necessarily a physical connectivity like that, although that could be. And we've talked about we have a proposal right on and on connecting our various sites and creating landscapes of beauty and the landscapes where pollinators, humans either walking or bicycling, they can move along this corridor, like the Dundas corridor, and not only connect with others, but then have have access to these patches where we grow food, right, so they also get access to food. But connection is, you know, for for humans, it's also the social connection. Like we allow people to come together and community members to meet at our various sites. At the Food Hub, at Nathan's Urban Farm, at the Innovation Centre, so these are the three sites of the Patch project. But there are many other sites of urban agriculture in London that have become focal points.
JOE
Right.
GABOR
Community focal points, right? I think one of the taglines that we use for the proposal is making food hubs the heart of every community, right? It's place creating spaces and places where people can connect and connect up. Maybe sharing ideas, right? Sharing drinks, so coffee, right. Or sharing the work that they do together.
JOE
And you you know, we talked about it earlier and you talking about, you know, right now you're super connected to community. And the concept of inclusivity is essential to the work that we do together at the PATCH. Why is urban agriculture for everyone such an important tagline? Why is it such an important goal? It's a goal. It's I think when people say, What's your mission? I think that's we may that may be one of the only one sentence missions.
GABOR
Right? So yeah, it's really important because we've- as a society, but even like in the urban agriculture realm, we've kind of overlooked disadvantaged, vulnerable groups.
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
Who are not present in many of these amazing sites where the community comes together because, for example, you know, they might not have physical access like someone in a wheelchair mobility or different mobility devices. So, I mean, that's a simple example of how we try to differentiate or- not differentiate, but allow people who have these different needs that they can actually come and be part of these these community places, right? Another group, you know, many newcomers from different parts of the world are people of different colour and or maybe a part of indigenous communities, perceived or actually real, that they don't feel welcomed, right?
JOE
Right.
GABOR
And so- and how do we create these these areas, these spaces where everyone feels welcomed? And it's a it's a huge work. It's not something that you can solve overnight. But I think this is also an area that the PATCH project and some other projects- I think you've been talking with Mystery Furtado, whose specific goal is to bring together or create these programs for people of colour,
JOE
Right.
GABOR
Black community where they can come together and create healthy landscapes through, you know, urban agriculture, but other other means as well. It's been great to see our. Various programs, and particularly I'm thinking of our volunteer program.
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
And our open volunteer nights. We we now have people from around the world.
JOE
It's great.
GABOR
And I've been meeting people from Tanzania, from India, from China, from all around the world. And it just wonderful to see that- yeah, you know, that we are in those those space together and we're learning from each other. I have another little story, which is, I mean-
JOE
We like stories.
GABOR
Yeah. Amazing story of, you know, there's a big apartment building in Kensington Village and this elderly couple who are from China and they don't speak a word of English.
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
But just judging the way they've been, always coming closer and closer to the food hub, like they were kind of interested. And then finally at one of these open volunteer nights, they they came in and luckily there was someone- another person from China was speaks Mandarin. And we were able to communicate. And this 87 year old man said, I got these seeds, these beans that I'd like to plant. Is that okay? And I'm like, Yeah, this is great because we've been meaning to create this, this green wall. So we have our space is fenced in, right? And we have raised beds going hugging the fence, or the fence, hugging the these raised beds. And so we went around together and planted these pole beans, beans that run up on to the fence. And-.
JOE
I really like it.
GABOR
Right? It's amazing. And then he's come back and checked on the process and said, no, no, don't do it that way. Do it this way. Right. So. Yeah, these these agricultural sites are becoming more inclusive spaces. And, you know, our work and our, you know, emphasis on making those especially our spaces over which we have maybe a bit more control like spaces where everyone is welcome.
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
So that when we say urban agriculture for everyone truly means that and that you got to see people from all walks of life.
JOE
It's a fact is for everyone. Speaking of community, you've partnered with another one of our guests and a video from Urban Roots on a report called The Urban Agriculture as Climate Action. There are a lot of layers there,.
GABOR
Right.
JOE
You know that, you wrote it.
GABOR
Yeah.
JOE
You researched it. Do you see, when we look at urban agriculture as a way to to combat climate change, do you see that as being something that's inclusive?
GABOR
So, you know, governments are talking about the big things, how we can start carbon, right,.
JOE
Right.
GABOR
Billion dollar projects here, and they deal with corporate interest corporations and rightfully so like they they can like if if those projects are successful, then they can do a lot of good but I think our- kind of the everyday person has been- they've been neglected or hasn't been empowered...
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
...to act. And then we also have these, you know, biases. Everyone's kind of finger pointing. The government points out those-
JOE
Of course.
GABOR
And then the people on, you know, might be pointing at governments. You do it, right? So how I see that climate action will go forward at a faster clip when we think of it more broadly and more, you know, including a broader part of society in, not just the action first, but in the discussion of what what, you know, what would be a viable action, right? So this is what we- with Anna we try to point out that you could do a lot of good, right. Even though, like maybe the carbon grams don't add up to something big, but I think we need to give confidence to people that they actually- what they do, even if it's a small, minor change, that it can add up.
JOE
It can add up. The math works.
GABOR
The math works. If over time, we make our small steps into bigger steps, right. And this is what I've been trying to kind of show with with my life how, you know, initially I was also just making really big steps like, let's say, climate wise, like in terms of the the CO2 emissions. Right. So I started with a small vegetable patch changing some of the windows. Now we've totally gutted our house and made it into a super tight, so a super insulated house that uses a fraction of the the energy that we used before, right. So over 20, 25 years of action, starting with small little things now it's become something big.
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
And so taking this message out to to everybody. That no matter where they are, if they can start with just a small step and hopeful in community with others.
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
Right.
JOE
Walk together.
GABOR
Walking together and kind of pointing out that we we live in an interdependent world and we need people who are, you know, at the grassroots level, who are more knowledgeable, who are doing more things. And then the politicians see that, oh- there's this groundswell of support and action. I see all the people around my house, right? You know, the politicians house. Yes. People are doing small things. Maybe bigger things. Hey, maybe I should support that and the next time I vote, right. So it's kind of we live in this interdependent world, and I know governments again, I start with that. They want to do something big.
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
But if they would, you know, focus on the small debt that that can be scaled up and over time, that gets you somewhere.
JOE
Absolutely. Resilience is a big word in climate change. But you see the idea broadly applied to societal and ecological shocks like pandemics and droughts and floods. Why is such a broad definition of resilience part of your North Star?
GABOR
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I like to think in bigger systems, and I like a bird's eye view of things.
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
So I've always been following, you know, the bigger stories in the way Homosapiens inhabits this earth and how we use energy, how we interact with the environment. So I've been tracking these, the various potential, you know, shocks that.
JOE
Yes,.
GABOR
That can hit us.
JOE
Of course.
GABOR
Right. Like in the energy system, especially, like we think that, you know, energy is bountiful, and in a sense it is, but right now we rely mostly on fossil fuels. Even with all the renewable efforts.
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
We still use- 80% of the energy we use is fossil fuel energy. Okay. So imagine if there are shocks to that system. And it could start it could be a war in the Middle East. I mean, there are there are wars, Right. But these key choke points that could be shut down so the flow of oil, flow of natural gas stops. And then so how how would our system, our urban system, be impacted? Right. So I've been thinking about these things because I think these are probable things, like not in the realm of, you know, science fiction that, it's not going to happen to us because we have a totally sound, you know, energy system or food system. We don't.
JOE
No.
GABOR
So we we still live in fairly fragile or a global system that has maybe, you know, layers of resilience because we have these interconnections which can help us in times of shock. But that that connectivity could also be a negative thing because there could be like a domino effect, right? So one system impacts the other. So imagine the energy system goes down and then how does that impact the food system? Most of the food is based as a global globalised food system that's fed by fossil fuels.
JOE
Right.
GABOR
The machinery, but also the fertilisers and now everything is made from- using fossil fuels. So, you know, you have the energy system going through a shock. Well, that's going to create a downstream shock in the food system and in many other systems, right. So I think as people who think, like, who plan into the future, who look at how the systems might kind of evolve and develop, the key decision makers, I think it's important that we consider what these shocks might be and how we can prepare for them. And I think one way in terms of our food and this is what's been driving my work in urban agriculture, part of the- part of it, right? It's also you know, community and everything else. But we have a food system that's 80%, 90% reliant on global supply chains of food. So if you got a wobble, we had that during the pandemic. But what if you got more than a wobble and things are actually shut down? We have maybe seven days of supply of food in the city. But imagine if we had a much more resilient system and a rebalance system where urban agriculture, rural agriculture right around London, you know, we have a connection to New Moon.
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
Farm. Right. So rebuilding those urban rural connections.
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
In food and then also bringing in urban agriculture to the places that are are open to urban agriculture. Right. Not everyone wants to grow their own food, which is understandable. But as a system, as an urban system, I think we need we need to go to grow more of the our own food and to rebuild those connections to the farmers around London. We live in a in a food basket.
JOE
Absolutely.
GABOR
So even if all the you know, the food stuff coming into Ontario shut down, we should be able to grow, like sustain ourselves. Right.
JOE
Be prepared to not be shocked by the shock.
GABOR
Yes.
JOE
Yes. Okay. We've talked about a lot of stuff today. Yeah. Is there anything that you'd like to talk about that I didn't cover?
GABOR
It's always a question that I've always got.
JOE
I mean, I'm okay to be told I did a great job, but.
GABOR
Well, maybe I'll just mention kind of the the- the- a new project. Yes. That that I'm working on and that the patch and other community groups hopefully will be become involved in. And is this the edible neighbourhood concept?
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
So creating landscapes of abundance. So it kind of tied- brings together all these these various projects that I've helped initiate and I had the pleasure of working on with many others collaborators, friends, neighbours. So these gardening places that we've helped establish are great so that, you know, people have opportunities now to go out and learn about how to grow fruits and vegetables, right? By thinking about that abundance in a in a more broad, more holistic way. This this project would, would create this, this edible neighbourhood where we have a plan for all all sectors of society. Right. You know, and how we can help them get access to the food that they need.
JOE
You're connecting again!
GABOR
Connecting like there could be, you know, people who can get out, right? For various reasons. They can get out maybe just a certain time of the year. So can we connect them with people who can help them, going grocery shopping, creating opportunities for indoor growing, for a balcony growing, right. Getting the- these resources available for the people who would like to do that. And then bringing in these rural growers and connecting them directly with the residents, whoever that would like to be part of it. Right. And it could be in the form of community supported agriculture, and New Moon is already doing this.
JOE
They are.
GABOR
But there might be other opportunities like setting up a market. There's already a neighbour who's doing a community food pantry and it would be great if we expanded the concept to not just non-perishable to perishable food, right, and that the food hub could contribute to.
JOE
That would be great.
GABOR
And New Moon, right. So creating landscapes of abundance where- so people are well connected in order to sustain themselves the way you know, they, they view that, you know, that's the most appropriate for them.
JOE
Okay. Last question.
GABOR
Okay.
JOE
What keeps you growing?
GABOR
Well, I love putting my hands into the dirt. Into soil. Because it's really it's not dirt. It's it's a living thing. It's a living ecosystem, the soil system. And I just love being out there, either putting seeds into the ground, weeding, just interacting with more of the garden, and when I do that with others like that, that really, you know, gives me a lot of energy, a lot of hope and keeps me growing.
JOE
And where can people find out about all the great work that you're doing online?
GABOR
That's a good question. And they can go to patchlondon.ca.
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
That's that's one good way they can connect through Facebook, which would be awesome. Kensington Village. So the neighbourhood where I live, we have a really active Facebook.
JOE
The famous KEVA.
GABOR
The famous KEVA group. We are working on a website, which would be great to have.
JOE
Very nice.
GABOR
And if people Google my name, they might be able to find links to reports and I- and probably emailing me would be the quickest way to to connect with me. And I love to then connect them. So, I love connecting people.
JOE
Yes.
GABOR
So if I find out that someone's interested in this and I know of another person or organisation, like I could, I could just be that connector.
JOE
You keep doing that. Gabor, thank you so much for being here today.
GABOR
You're welcome. This is great. Thank you.
Adam GrowAbility is hosted by Joe Gansevles and Holly Pugsley and produced by Joe Gansevles and Adam Caplan. Special thanks to this week's guest, Dr. Gabor Sass. Lighting and Camera Design by Kevin Labonte. With production support from Oliver Gansevles. GrowAbility's production was made much easier with the help of Jessie Chen, Terry Fujioka, Zach Grossman. Zachary Meads, Leo Shin, and Debora Camargo from Fanshawe College's Broadcasting Television and Film Production program. Thanks to Janice Robinson from Fanshawe for arranging for these students invaluable participation. Holly Pugsley of Just Keep Growing provided the plants and made sure they looked great. Audience and Marketing Strategy by Japs Kaur Miglani with support from Doruntia Uka and Tess Alcock. Our theme music is Wandering William by Adrian Walter and can be found on SoundStripe. Thanks as well to Hubert Orlowski for providing technical and audio engineering advice to help our podcast sound great. Adam Caplan - that's me - is web.isod.es executive producer, and Sammy Orlowski is our Senior Creator. Special thanks to Jennifer Routley from Siskinds the law firm, for arranging to host us at their beautiful head office in downtown London, Ontario. GrowAbility is a web.isod.es production and is produced with the support and participation of the team at the PATCH and Hutton House.