Lia Babitch Will Seed You Now

Video

Audio

Episode Synopsis

Joe and Holly have a virtual hangout with Lia Babitch, co-manager of the Turtle Tree Seed Initiative at Camphill Village Copake, New York and discuss the ways in which seeds can nurture both plants and human potential .

The Turtle Tree Seed Initiative, a non-profit operating within the Camphill community, grows and sells nearly 400 varieties of open-pollinated seeds using biodynamic practices. What makes them unique is their integration with Camphill's mission of creating meaningful work opportunities for adults with developmental disabilities, who work alongside volunteers and long-term community members in the seed production process.

Through their Safe Seed Pledge and commitment to "social agriculture" - working collaboratively rather than in isolation - Turtle Tree demonstrates how sustainable agriculture can simultaneously preserve plant diversity and foster human dignity. The initiative exemplifies Camphill's philosophy that everyone, regardless of ability, has valuable contributions to make.

Links Mentioned In This Episode

• Turtle Tree Seed Inititative (and store)
• Camphill Village Copake

Transcript

HOLLY
Whatcha reading?

JOE
Oh, nothing. Just a Dashiell Hammett novel.

HOLLY
Oh, The Maltese Falcon? The Thin Man? The Red Harvest?

JOE
The Glass Key.

HOLLY
Not sure I'm familiar with that one. What's it about?

JOE
An amateur detective enters the seedy underworld of the mob to solve a murder.

HOLLY
Okay, you're still waiting to see if the detectives find the seeds, aren't you?

JOE
Yeah, I'm almost at the end and there hasn't even been a mention of a potted plant, let alone an urban farm.

HOLLY
Hmm, the garden plot thickens.

JOE
From webisodes, this is GrowAbility, a digital documentary at the intersection of urban agriculture, food security and community.

HOLLY
On this episode, we speak to Lia Babitch, co -manager of Turtle Tree Seed Initiative, which is also part of Camphill Village Copake, a non-profit intentional community of adults with developmental differences.

JOE
Camphill is truly inspiring. It's a worldwide group of communities designed to include people with and without intellectual disabilities, empowering people to grow, learn and achieve together.

HOLLY
And the Turtle Tree Seed Initiative is a non-profit seed company within Camphill Village Copake that sells 100% open-pollinated vegetable, herb and flower seeds.

JOE
There are so many places where Lia's work crosses into the core themes of GrowAbility.

HOLLY
I totally see why you wanted to have a talk with her. The way she thinks about things like social agriculture.

JOE
Love that phrase.

HOLLY
And even Camphill's commitment to embracing everyone of every ability aligned so closely with the work that we're doing at The PATCH and on GrowAbility.

JOE
Yep, and the Turtle Tree Seed Initiative only sells what they call safe seeds, which are grown using biodynamic and organic practises, something we've talked about with Dr. Mike Curry.

HOLLY
Right. I hope we get to talk to her about that in the interview.

JOE
Before we hop on the old virtual horn with Lia, if you like this show, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

HOLLY
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JOE
In either case, head over to GrowAbilityPod.com to sign up for our fresh and nutritious newsletter for all the latest from GrowAbility and our guests.

HOLLY
As Joe always says, it does go both ways. Email us at hosts at GrowAbilityPod.com.

JOE
We read every email we get and we always want your ideas, questions and future guest suggestions.

HOLLY
And who's got two L's in a beautiful office? TechAlliance, Southwestern Ontario does. Thanks so much for inviting us to record this round of interviews in this beautiful space.

JOE
And now let's dig into the seedy world of Lia Babitch.

JOE
Thanks for joining us, Lia.

LIA
Thank you.

HOLLY
Where do we find you today?

LIA
Today I am in Camphill Village in Copake, New York. And I'm sure you have questions about that. So I'll let you ask them.

JOE
OK, we'll start there. I'm not sure how much our audience knows about the organisation that you work with. So let's start there. What is Camphill?

LIA
Camphill is actually a worldwide organisation, but it's also a series of independently run communities which work with people with developmental challenges. And the community that I'm a part of, which is in Copake, New York, has about, let's see. So we're on about 700 acres. Most of it is woodland and fields and forests and wetlands. And in our beautiful valley, we have a community that includes about 240 people, about 100 of whom have developmental challenges. And then we have long -term volunteers like myself who live here. I live with my family here. And in my house, I also have five folks with developmental challenges. And then we also have young volunteers who come from all over the world, usually for a gap year, but sometimes for more. And so there are two people right now in my house who are here for a year. And one of them is from Zambia and one is from England.

HOLLY
Okay.

LIA
And in our valley, so it's a little complicated. In our valley, we also have, so we have fields and forests. And we have, on those fields and in the forests, we have a number of work areas. So we have a dairy farm that's just for our own consumption. We have vegetable growing. We have a beautiful herb and healing plant garden, which is about three acres.

HOLLY
Oh, wow.

LIA
Absolutely lovely. And then also we have Turtle Tree Seed, which is the seed company where I work. And we have three gardens that all add up to about three acres of garden. And then in the woodland, we also do some harvesting of firewood. And we do maple syrup production.

HOLLY
Oh, my gosh. Wonderful.

LIA
Also, yeah, that's a lot. And then also in the valley, so we have about 20 houses that are life -sharing houses like the one that I live in. And then we also have a number of people who are, so we work with adults, but the age range is quite broad and many of them are ageing. And we also have a lot of craft and fine art, fine craft studios. So we have woodworking. We have weaving, candle making, which is just purely beeswax candles. And it smells amazing. And oh, gosh, we have paper craft and we have a wonderful bakery and a little cafe and coffee shop and also a little co-op shop for our valley. So it's really like a village and we call it Camphill Village.

HOLLY
Beautiful.

HOLLY
Yeah.

HOLLY
Beautiful.

JOE
Amazing.

HOLLY
The term life -sharing community, can you unpack that term for us?

LIA
Yeah. So what that means is that my husband and I and our children live here in the valley, in the village. And we share our lives with people with developmental challenges and they share their lives with us. So I live in a household, for instance, as I said, with five folks. And many of them I've lived with for many, many years. And we know each other very well. And yeah, we share our lives. So we share celebrations and sadness and challenges and growth together.

HOLLY
Beautiful. And what's Camphill's origin story? How did it start?

LIA
So in the early 40s, when many people were fleeing Central Europe, a small group of people came to Scotland from Central Europe. And they were people who had already been working with people with developmental challenges. And they really felt called to that work. And as they experienced being refugees, they looked around and they saw that really people with developmental challenges at that time were really refugees within their own society. You know, there were hospitalisation possibilities and there were staying at home and just being a perpetual child, basically. But none of those were really respecting the individual's need to find growth and to learn and be challenged by a career. And so those people created the first communities. And first they were schools for children. And then those children grew up, they also grew up to be adult communities where people could find vocations.

JOE
So obviously, the story of the founding of Camphill is extraordinary. Do you think it could be done today?

LIA
Well, new Camphills are starting all over the world today. So I mean, I don't know if and I think, you know, of course, new ideas come up all the time.

JOE
Right.

LIA
But for instance, there are new Camphills that have been starting in Argentina and Colombia and then all over. There's a relatively new one in Vietnam. It's some years old by now. And in Rwanda, they're beginning some and Tanzania. So it's really, yeah, there are new Camphills starting all the time.

JOE
Wonderful.

HOLLY
Wonderful. And there are 100 Camphill locations around the world. What connects them to each other? What's the tie that binds them?

LIA
The tie that binds them is the underlying philosophy of anthroposophy, which these young people, when they started the first Camphill, they came out of that background. And it's a philosophy that really honours the individual and the human spirit.

JOE
Camphill Copake is just one of the Camphill Association's many remarkable locations. And you have described it very well in all of the services. Perhaps you could explain maybe the ethos. So, you know, knowing that to me, having worked in accommodated living, a term that we use at least in Canada, what would day one look like for one of your new community members?

LIA
Well, our community members who are going to be here for a longer time, whether they're going to be folks with developmental challenges or whether they are going to be long term volunteers, they have to visit beforehand and they have to get to know the place a little. And that can be, you know, a week or two weeks or it can be a month in the case of folks with developmental challenges. And then they go home and they figure out whether this is something that they really want to do because it's really a unique way of doing things. So it would mean, you know, really living in a house and then you find your workplace in one of these work areas. And that can change. You can shift from if you're really placed in the bakery and you find you're really not a baker, maybe you can find your vocation on the estate, helping with firewood and helping with maple syrup and helping with upkeep of the land. Or maybe craft work is your thing and you find your vocation in the wood shop. And so it has to be somebody who wants to do things. You know, it has to be somebody who is interested in learning and interested in doing things. And that's not for everybody. And that's absolutely fine. And so it really is, I would say, day one is being happy that you've made the choice that you've made to join and enthusiastic to begin. That's day one.

JOE
So I guess I'm going to focus my question on Campale Copake. Do you find that many of your new community members are people from urban settings or rural settings?

LIA
Some of them have come through different Camphill communities. So there's another Camphill community down the road, Camphill Village Triform, which works with college-age folks. And so we have people coming from there. And that's really wonderful because they've gone through already a vocational training. And many of them are already skilled weavers or skilled bakers or skilled gardeners. And so they have already a leg up. And then there are a lot of people who come both from rural and urban areas, but who come from group homes. And some of them have had activities and some of them have not. And so for some people, they found that a life of consuming media is not particularly rewarding. So they want to do something else. And also we have people who have had their own apartments and lived on their own in an urban setting who find themselves very lonely. I think one of the most heartbreaking things that somebody asked when they were first coming for their trial visit was, I don't have to eat alone, do I? And it was just, you know, that just crushes you, you know? And no, here we eat together. You know, we're together here.

HOLLY
Wow.

JOE
The Campale model is based on anthroposophy. Could you define and explain the term for our audience? I know that's a big question.

LIA
No, it's okay. So it's the wisdom of the human being. The word translates as the wisdom of the human being. And it is, I mean, it's very, very broad.

JOE
It is.

LIA
There are aspects of it that touch on almost every area of life from healing to farming to education and beyond. But essentially, I think it says human beings are part of a wider cosmos.

JOE
Yes.

LIA
We're part of the Earth that we live on and we're part of the spiritual world. And we have in us all of that.

JOE
Thank you very much.

HOLLY
Thank you.

HOLLY
Has the Camphill model changed since its inception?

LIA
It has, yeah.

HOLLY
In what ways?

LIA
I think in Copac, we're very traditional. You know, we have these larger homes where there's a couple of folks with challenges and a couple of long -term volunteers living together. There have also been models where, for instance, in New Orleans, they have just a day programme. They don't have any residential housing. Of course, Louisiana is a state that has very different support for people than New York does. We're pretty lucky in New York that there's quite a lot of state support for people. Yeah, and there are places that I visited in Ireland, for instance, where it's just a little shop and one house and everyone helps and works in the shop, and maybe there's a little garden next to it. But there's a whole range. There's really a whole range of community possibilities. I think in Rwanda, they also have, as part of their community, they also have many people who just come in for the day. And yeah, and then there are places that are really all-encompassing in where people live and work. And some of them are rural and some of them are urban, and yeah, there's really a huge variety.

HOLLY
Very interesting.

JOE
The Camphill philosophy is no matter what anyone's outward disability may appear to be, the spirit, the essential core that makes us all human always remains whole. I, as somebody who's worked in social services and worked with people with disabilities since 1996, I don't think I've ever read a better way to describe abilities first. Is that what we're talking about here? Did I get the gist of it?

LIA
Yes, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that is the core.

HOLLY
So wonderful.

JOE
It's beautiful.

HOLLY
I'm bringing back to the grow and growability for a moment. What is the Turtle Tree Seed Initiative?

LIA
So at Turtle Tree, we grow vegetable, herb, and flower seeds.

HOLLY
Okay.

LIA
So we're not just growing the vegetables. We're growing them and then on to seed production.

HOLLY
Yep.

LIA
And we have about a little over 300, probably about 390 different varieties of seeds that we care for.

HOLLY
Wow.

LIA
And each year we'll grow about 70 or 80 different seed varieties on our land. And through that whole process, we're working together with folks who have challenges, who have been with us for many years. We're working with young people from all around the world who have no experience whatsoever.

HOLLY
Yeah.

LIA
And everything, you know, and all together. And so we grow those vegetables, and then we grow them onto seeds, and then we harvest those and we clean the seeds to be what we call packet ready and then pack them and we send them all over North America.

HOLLY
Wow.

LIA
So we ship, we have an online presence and we have a catalogue and yeah.

HOLLY
Incredible. Incredible.

HOLLY
And what is the relationship between Turtle Tree Seeds and Camphill?

LIA
Turtle Tree is a part of Camphill Village.

HOLLY
Oh, wonderful.

LIA
So it's just one of the work areas we have, you know, like our bakery or like our candle shop that is part of Camphill Village.

HOLLY
Perfect.

HOLLY
That's amazing to have it right on site too. Everything you guys are doing is just being regenerated, recycled. Amazing.

HOLLY
And your website mentions the Safe Seed Pledge. What is a safe seed and why do you think we need to make a pledge about it?

JOE
Yeah.

LIA
I mean, there, without going into too much of the details of the controversies around intellectual property rights, there are, you know, there are corporations who want to control the seed supply. And some of that is through genetic manipulation and some of that is through patenting.

HOLLY
Right.

LIA
And for us, we just feel like, you know, seeds are freely given by the plants with a bit of work and that it's essential that we honour that everyone who has come before us all the work that they've done in getting seeds to the point where they are and that we are able to pass that on without restriction into the future.

JOE
Turtle tree seeds are Demeter certified. Can we talk about the value of that to your group?

LIA
Yeah. I mean, the practises that we would do that allow us to be Demeter certified are ones that we would do whether or not we were certified. However, we, those, and those include, so with organic, we'll say everybody, pretty much everyone has kind of an idea of, oh, I know what organic is, right? And that's, you know, there's a whole lot of things that you're not allowed to do. You're not allowed to use, you know, chemical fertilisers and chemical pesticides and all these different things. And the very best organic growers are also doing things like soil health improvement and composting and working with, you know, field boundaries to make sure that there's lots of lively wildlife around and lots of biodiversity, and they're doing great crop rotations and all of these things. And so that's all really important and actually required in biodynamics. And so we have to set aside certain portions of our land for wildlife and we have to do all of these things. And then also we, there's also a spiritual element where we recognise that we're not alone in our work. Not only are we working with all of the insects and the birds and the various plants and wildlife, but we're also working with the spiritual world as well.

JOE
And all these elements that you used the word biodynamics, these are all elements of biodynamics? 

LIA
Yes.

JOE
Would you be able to explain the connection between the Dementor seed certification in biodynamics?

LIA
Yes, so Dementor is just the international organisation, and there's a chapter in the U.S. which certifies biodynamic crops and produce. So they're just the sort of certifying organisation.

HOLLY
Okay.

JOE
All right. And then maybe just quick Coles notes on biodynamics for our audience if you don't mind.

LIA
Yeah, so biodynamic agriculture tries to take a holistic, really holistic view of the land and growing, and that includes people, and from the soil up to the stars.

HOLLY
Wonderful. I see a term come up in the Camphill world I really like, social agriculture. What does that term mean?

LIA
Yeah, it means working together on the land. It's just very basic. It's not, I think there's no specific magic to the term, but it is not necessarily something that's done. I think farming can be a very lonely practise, and it can be when you're just in your tractor cab for 10, 12 hours. It can be very lonely, but what we try to do is to work together, and we work together with a variety of people, and we try to encourage the young people who come to us that they can learn a bunch, and when they go out into the world, they know something, and the folks with developmental challenges are also people who are real teachers in that. And so we're working together, yeah.

JOE
So that connection to the land is a foundational idea for Camphill. Is this still knowing that there are Camphills that are in urban settings? Is this still an important pillar for the organisation?

LIA
Each Camphill has its own way.

JOE
Of course.

LIA
I think for our village, it's absolutely foundational, and for many it is. And that's not to say that's for everyone, but it is for us, yeah.

HOLLY
And speaking of connection to the land, is the name turtle tree related to an indigenous name for what we call North America?

LIA
Well, it is, but it didn't start out that way. So it was the original founders of Turtle Tree were working- they trained in seed growing, and then they came, and they trained in Switzerland, and then they came back to the US, and they were looking for a farm to be on. And they sort of did one season there and one season somewhere else, and they were at the headwaters of the Mississippi on a farm that was giving them a few acres to work on. And the farmer said, now you guys have got to come up with a name. You can't just keep on running around and not have a name for your business. And it was quite a wet year, and one of the founders looked over and at one point had seen, I think it was a painted turtle, and it was laying eggs under an oak tree by the side of the field, kind of a marshy end of the field. And it just struck him, and he thought, this is something really special. And he said, let's call our business Turtle Tree. And then some years later they found out that, of course, Turtle Island is an indigenous name for North America. And also they were at the headwaters of the Mississippi, which is this beautiful tree pattern on the turtle's back. And so it just kind of all came together, even though originally it was just something that popped up.

JOE
Why is it so important for Camphill that it remains an inclusive space for people with and without disabilities?

LIA
Wow, that's a big question.

JOE
It comes from a place of deep admiration.

LIA
Yeah, I would say almost that there isn't any other way to be how we want to be. To work from a space of inclusion is just absolutely essential. I mean, it goes down to how we live and all the way up to that we, as human beings, just need connection to one another. And that that's essential for all human beings, whoever you are.

HOLLY
Right. Thank you so much. Is there anything we missed that you maybe wanted to talk about?

LIA
Nothing comes to mind.

HOLLY
We covered a lot. We did ask some pretty intense questions.

JOE
Where can people find out more both about the Turtle Tree Seed Initiative and Camphill?

LIA
So Camphill Village has a website, and that is camphillvillage.org.

HOLLY
Perfect.

LIA
And Turtle Tree has the website, and that is turtletreeseed.org.

HOLLY
Wonderful.

LIA
And you can visit those and find out more about us.

HOLLY
Perfect. We'll make sure we put that on the link in the show notes then. Perfect. But before we sign off, there is one final question that we do ask all of our guests, and that is what keeps you growing?

LIA
Oh my goodness, the people and also the land and also the seeds. I mean, seeds are just amazing and you always learn more. I think any kind of, you know, any agriculture that you're doing, every single year you're going to learn more stuff. Yeah. And that's amazing.

HOLLY
Yeah.

LIA
And when you're doing it with people, you're learning more from the land and you're learning more from the people. And it's just, it's amazing. Yeah. And really exciting.

HOLLY
Beautiful. Beautiful.

JOE
Lia, thank you so much for speaking with us today.

HOLLY
Thank you. Thank you so much. Awesome.

ADAM
If you like this show, please like and subscribe on YouTube and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.We're preparing a bunch of special extras for our Fresh & Nutritious Newsletter subscribers. Sign up for free at GrowAbilityPod.com.

GrowAbility is hosted by Joe Gansevles and Holly Pugsley. Special thanks to this week's guest, Lia Babitch.

Our show is produced by Adam Caplan, Joe Gansevles, and Holly Pugsley.

Production support from Oliver Gansevles, Evan Gansevles, Scott Hohn, Kevin Labonte, Paul Rogers, Dorentina Ucke and Alan Williamson.

Holly Pugsley of Just Keep Growing art directed this episode and made sure the plants looked great. Audience strategy by Dorentina Ucke and Tess Alcock. Our theme music is Wandering William by Adrienne Walther and can be found on Soundstripe.

Adam Caplan, that's me, is web.iso.des executive producer and Sammy Orlowski is our senior creator.

Thanks to TechAlliance of Southwestern Ontario, including Farida Abdelnabi and Sarah Edmondson for letting us shoot at their beautiful offices.

Special thanks to Leigh Ann Gansevles for the support and yummy food, Hubert Orlowski for helping our podcast sound great and Gabor Sass for making some great introductions.

GrowAbility is a web.isod.es production and is produced with the support and participation of the team at The PATCH and Hutton House.