Keisha Joseph Makes Food Deserts Bloom

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Episode Synopsis

Holly and Joe welcome Keisha Joseph, who chairs The Middlesex London Food Policy Council when she's not working as a food systems coordinator at Indwell, a nonprofit providing supportive housing across Ontario. With her background in nutrition and dietetics, Keisha shares insights into food security, food literacy, and community building. She explains how Indwell helps residents transition from homelessness to stable housing while addressing food insecurity through meal programs, cooking classes, and grocery shopping support. Keisha discusses how food deserts, rising prices, and inadequate social benefits contribute to systemic food insecurity. She advocates for a practical approach to nutrition, emphasizing the importance of regular meals over strict dietary rules. The conversation explores urban planning's role in food accessibility, the potential of indoor farming, and how stable housing creates a foundation for food security. Keisha's passion for community nutrition and empowering others shines through as she describes her fulfilling work at Indwell.

Links Mentioned

• Indwell's Website
• Indwell's Instagram
• The Middlesex London Food Policy Council

Transcript

JOE
Holly, what's your go-to comfort food?

HOLLY
My total guilty pleasure is my world-famous homemade spaghetti.

JOE
With meatballs?

HOLLY
You guessed it. If there's any other way to eat pasta, I really don't want to know about it.  But what about you?

JOE
Well, I'm a gluten-free vegetarian who will ride my vintage bicycle 50km in sub-zero temperatures before I eat breakfast. I don't need comfort food.

HOLLY
Come on, everybody's got a little something they cry into or celebrate with. What's yours?

JOE
Okay, you got me. Apple dumplings.

HOLLY
Really? That's interesting. The hipster's cyclist's got a sweet tooth.

JOE
Hey!

HOLLY
I don't know, Joe. I just call 'em like I see 'em.

JOE
From webisodes, this is GrowAbility, a digital documentary at the intersection of urban agriculture, food security, and community.

HOLLY
On this episode, we are chewing the proverbial fat with food systems champion, Keisha Joseph.

JOE
Keisha Works is the food program coordinator with the subsidized and supportive housing charity that provides housing and support for vulnerable populations.

HOLLY
Just a heads-up that many of the individuals Keisha works with have experienced homelessness or are living in precarious housing situations and may even have severe mental health disabilities or substance abuse disorders. Some listeners may find some of our conversation disturbing.

JOE
So, Holly, I think Keisha proves that not all heroes wear capes.

HOLLY
Right. I'm so excited to talk to her about finding a balance between nutrition and sustenance, particularly on extremely tight budgets.

JOE
I'm curious about how she advises people to navigate food deserts and how a lack of accessibility contributes to poor mental and physical health.

HOLLY
Like, how are people supposed to eat healthy when they can't get access to good food, even when they want it?

JOE
Exactly.

HOLLY
If you've made it this far, you love us. Tell your friends about us and definitely rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

JOE
And if you're watching this on the YouTube, take a moment to like and subscribe.

HOLLY
Better yet, sign up for our free Fresh and Nutritious newsletter.

JOE
No food desert there. And special thanks to Tech Alliance of Southwestern Ontario for hosting us at their offices for this round of interviews.

HOLLY
We always want to hear from you, so please send your emails to hosts at growabilitypod .com. We're excited for your suggestions and questions.

JOE
Well, first up, let's roll our interview with Keisha Joseph.

HOLLY
Keisha, thank you so much for joining us here today.

KEISHA
Yeah, thanks for having me.

JOE
Before we dive in, you have a really interesting education. And can you talk us through nutrition and dietetics? Did I say that right?

KEISHA
Yes, you did.

JOE
OK, good.

HOLLY
Nice.

KEISHA
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so I have a Bachelor of Science in nutrition and dietetics from formerly known as Brescia University College. So sad that they are no longer. Yeah, so I did that degree and that usually leads you towards becoming a registered dietitian. So after you do that degree, typically you'd have to do a master's program or an internship. And so nutrition and dietetics, the idea behind that, nutrition is kind of the study of how food affects your body. But dietetics focuses more on how to like coach or support somebody specifically with their diet. So you want nutrition so you know all the information about food and how it impacts the body. And then dietetics is that kind of piece about helping people figure out how to change their diet for the better.

JOE
Cool. 

HOLLY
Interesting. You now work as a food systems coordinator for an organization called Indwell. Let's start there. What is Indwell and what's its mission?

KEISHA
Yeah, so Indwell is a nonprofit organization and we do supportive and subsidized housing for people in need. We say hope and homes for all. And yeah, so our clientele typically would be people who have mental health concerns, substance use disorders, physical disabilities, a combination of those things. And usually they are coming from homelessness or have been previously homeless and are in some sort of precarious housing or are at risk of losing their housing. So we will bring them in. We will give them permanent housing and provide them with the supports that they need to make sure that they stay housed, which is our ultimate goal, as we say, like I said, hope and homes for all.

JOE
So I have it on good authority that Indwell isn't just in our community. It's in other communities. Would you be able to talk a little bit about geographically where Indwell is?

KEISHA
Yeah, so in London we have three buildings with three more coming on in the next couple of years. And then we go as far east as Mississauga. And then we have some buildings in kind of the Simcoe area. And I think the furthest west we are is London, but hoping to expand outside of that. London is one of our biggest areas that we are in. And the other biggest area is Hamilton. That's actually where Indwell started. So we have quite a number of buildings in Hamilton. A couple in St. Thomas, Woodstock, like I said, Mississauga, Simcoe, Kitchener, Waterloo. So yeah, we're expanding quite rapidly, which is really nice. And it's nice to see that we're not only expanding into other regions, but also expanding within the regions that we're already in.

JOE
That's right, investing in your communities.

KEISHA
Yeah, exactly.

JOE
So I'm super curious about your job. Because in every time we've had to chat, you're always doing something cool. Would you be able to tell our viewers and our listeners a little bit about your job?

KEISHA
Yeah. So I'll do kind of two things. So I actually recently transitioned into the role I'm in now, which is a bit more of I would say administrative work and kind of overseeing and coordinating the food program within the London region. So I work within the buildings that we have to support the people that are on kind of the front lines doing food security work and creating different partnerships, helping with new buildings, new projects that we have going on. But prior to that and kind of the food security work that we do directly with our tenants is the food program facilitator role, which is where I started at Indwell. And that is more of a frontline food security support job. So that's a lot of teaching skills. So we'll do cooking classes, one on one support with our tenants, do stuff like going to grocery stores to teach them how to grocery shop, maybe relieve some anxiety that they might have around that, connecting them with resources that could get them, whether it be free food or food at a budget. We use a lot of community resources that already exist. So things like the Middlesex London Health Unit Harvest Bucks program. We love the Harvest Bucks. They are super helpful and the different other programs that they have alongside that. And then we have our meal program as well, which is each of our tenants that are in our buildings, they get one hot meal a day. And that is either catered by an outside vendor, which is the way that we work in London specifically. But in our other buildings, some of the food program facilitators will actually cook those meals daily. And so that's a way that we can kind of ensure that our tenants have at least some baseline food security. They at the very least are getting one meal each day. Yeah, so I started out as that, which is really nice. It's very fulfilling. It's nice to see as they grow how much more interested they get in cooking, how much more interested they get in grocery shopping, how they go from needing a staff to go with them to the grocery store to being able to do it completely on their own and budget. It's really nice. But now I kind of do more of like the organizing of those things and making sure that we're doing that kind of equally throughout and more, not necessarily standardized, but consistently throughout the London programs.

HOLLY
It's really impactful work that you guys are doing.

KEISHA
It's awesome. It's like I said, very fulfilling. It makes the hard days easier. Yeah.

HOLLY
Now you're doing it for a better purpose.

KEISHA
Exactly.

HOLLY
For some change, some real change too. We're all pretty upset about the bills that we get at the grocery store these days. But what does that mean? What does it mean to be truly food insecure in that case?

KEISHA
Yeah, so I actually personally think that food insecurity is a symptom of our system that is failing.

HOLLY
Interesting.

KEISHA
And the food prices, like you said, are a really great example of that. I think that is our system failing in different ways. It's not only a failure of the current food system that we have. There's a lot of like monopolization of different food, just kind of commodity crops, things like that that are impacting food prices and the farmers that are growing the food. But then there's also a failure of the system in the income sector, especially with our tenants. A lot of them are on social service benefits of different kinds. And it is not nearly enough for anybody to live off of, especially when you add that rising of food prices as well. So, yeah, I think that there are definitely other things that contribute to food security. But if we're talking about that specifically, I do think that it is a failure of our system to not look at the way that we get food currently is not sustainable, not even just for us, but also for the environment. And then on the other end, how, you know, I think that people forget that food is not just a basic need, but it is like a part of us. Food, you know, brings so much emotion. It can, you know, hold memories. It can, you know, change your mood very drastically. So I feel like that's forgotten. And it's definitely more of, like I said, a commodity food is there to make money or just to, you know, feed us. And that's about it. So I think that's a crucial piece that's missing in the way that we view the food system.

HOLLY
I think convenience has a big impact in food insecurity where, like, where people just, you know, they were unable to access the food. Like, is that a part of the, do you think that's a bigger part of the problem, the accessibility part?

KEISHA
For sure. 100 percent. The two, well, three, actually all three of our buildings in London are in food deserts. So we have two buildings that are along the Dundas Street, one at 356 and one at 730. So they're kind of downtown Old East Village area. And then our other one is over on Thompson Road. And there is not a grocery store within walking distance. There's not really a grocery store within reasonable bussing distance either. Especially when we first opened in the Embassy Commons building, which is the one in Old East Village. That building, Dundas was going through crazy construction during that time for, I think, probably almost a full year that we were open. And so tenants couldn't access the bus unless they were going to walk all the way down to York Street and catch the bus there, which is not realistic for a lot of our tenants, especially because a lot of them do have physical disabilities that already present that barrier. And then on top of that, you know, to have to walk, it's just unrealistic. So, yeah, I think that there's not enough accessibility in that realm for sure of being able to actually get to the places to get the food. You see a lot of convenience stores pop up in areas where it's not super accessible. And they will obviously have, you know, even more expensive prices than the grocery store. So it's like a double whammy kind of like first you can't even get to the grocery stores that are affordable and then that are affordable. And then you get to the place that you can get food and it is, you know, triple the price that you would have at the grocery store anyway. So, yeah, there's no winning.

HOLLY
We almost need like little farmers markets on every corner.

KEISHA
I 100 % agree with that.

HOLLY
That's my dream. Yeah. Why can't we- It's odd that we have access to like a million Tim Hortons and McDonald's on every single corner. And then like where is the health and where are all the... I think urban agriculture plays a big part in this. But yeah, I just think sourcing these foods, like people are growing and we just need to find them, make sure we utilize the buildings that are going to waste kind of around these food deserts.

KEISHA
Yeah, 100%. Definitely in the areas that we're in, we see there are a lot of buildings that are just empty and serve no purpose currently. And I think the same goes for even like green spaces. Like there are not a lot of green spaces where our buildings are. But I think things like community gardens or even parks that could have spaces where you have food that's available to people or edible fruit trees like in the areas. I feel like, you know, if you're going down Dundas instead of putting, you know, I think it's like a redwood that they put there or a redbud, put a fruit tree. You know, why not just throw a fruit tree instead?

JOE
What's really interesting about the work that you do is convenience and community don't always go hand in hand. And I think one of the antidotes for food security is community. How do you feel about that?

KEISHA
I agree. I think that food creates belonging for sure and is a great entry into building community, you know. I don't know what the saying is, but there's some saying about if someone eats your food, then they must really trust you or something like that.

JOE
I like that.

KEISHA
This idea that, you know, if someone is choosing to eat something you've made for them, they must, you know, really connect with you in some way. And I think it helps form connection. That's one of the things that we believe in in the work that we do at Indwell. It's why we have the things like the meal program as well, not just to feed them, but to give an opportunity for everyone to come together, sit down, share a meal. And I think it's a good segue in terms of having a conversation, right?

HOLLY
Yeah.

KEISHA
You can talk about if you're enjoying the meal, if you're not enjoying the meal, what kind of foods do you like, what kind of foods you don't like, if you like to cook, if you don't. So I think, yeah, I think that food definitely creates community, builds belonging, and it kind of goes back to what you were just saying about growing food as well. You know, a community working together to grow food or share food that they have grown with each other is amazing. Maybe someone has the skills to grow the food, but doesn't really feel that confident in the kitchen. You know, but then you guys come together. You have a person who can cook, person who can grow. And now you've, you know, solved your food insecurity.

HOLLY
It's almost like wealth to me.

KEISHA
Yeah.

HOLLY
That's what wealth is to me.

KEISHA
Yeah, 100 percent.

JOE
I mean, you look at processed food there because there's there's brand names attached. There's an implied trust.

KEISHA
Right.

JOE
But there's a real trust in community and in, you know, bringing people together into growing food. And for me, the work you do is that's so important. And I really appreciate it.

KEISHA
Thank you. Thank you so much.

HOLLY
Yeah, we need people like you out there. Just advocates for advocates for change, though, like real change. I think a lot of people get like almost frustrated. Like, how do we afford healthy foods? How do we access them? It's like if if we're not being given it in a convenient way, it's like very difficult to oversee those barriers and just kind of plow through. But yeah, it's really important to have people like you and also like, yeah, Indwell in general, just in these cities. Yeah, that we're in need. We are in need.

JOE
And to piggyback off of that, you know, what what happens to people that are seeking healthy food that they can't afford it for themselves or themselves and their families? What what does that look like in the work that you do?

KEISHA
Yeah, so we often see a lot of people obviously will turn to foods that we would, I guess, consider unhealthy. Foods that are cheap foods that are ultra processed just to get some sort of calories in, right. So they have some sort of energy to go through their day. I also think it results in kind of an oversaturation saturation with food services that exist, like food banks and meal support services, because people, you know, don't have anywhere else to turn. And then, you know, food banks are running out of food really quickly. You know, they're relying on people to donate. But when you see we're already having this food crisis where, you know, people who do have moderate incomes are barely affording food, they are not in a position necessarily to be able to donate. And then you have the people who can't afford the food at all relying on those people to donate. And it's just, you know, a cycle that results in everyone being food insecure.

HOLLY
Yeah.

JOE
And when we look at that and we look at processed food, you know, because that processed food is the go to. And there's calories. So there's empty calories and calories may be delicious, but not necessarily nutritious. How do folks like yourself lead that change to healthy and nutritious food? What does that conversation look like?

KEISHA
I personally tend to take a lens of it's a pretty up and coming idea of like food neutrality sort of. So instead of focusing on the idea of like just flat out healthy versus unhealthy, I try to focus more on the actual like nutrients, like breaking it down into into what it is. And I'm not a registered dietician, so I would say that, you know, my level of expertise is not, you know, crazy. But usually with the people that we're supporting, they're not necessarily looking for a deep dive on every single nutrient that's in an apple. But if they can understand, you know, the the basics of, you know, carbs, proteins, fats, these are the things that the things that they do for your body. These are the vitamins. These are the minerals. You know, some people are more interested than others, which is, you know, you get with everybody. But yeah, I try to take that lens, this idea of, you know, well, calories are energy. And at the very least, that's a baseline. You know, that food is important because we need that energy and that's what calories provide to us. But if you had, you know, an apple and you had a chocolate bar, yes, they're both going to give you energy in theory. But, you know, the apple's not only going to give you energy, but it's going to give you all these different vitamins that are going to do all these different things for your body. And the chocolate bar might give you a vitamin or two, but it's not going to give you as many. And you're not, you know, you're going to get all these extra benefits with the apple, not only just the energy as opposed to the chocolate bar. And, you know, sometimes I'm like, just eat both. Why not? If you have both, eat both.

JOE
Start with championing healthy food systems.

KEISHA
Yes.

JOE
And then the chocolate bar.

KEISHA
Yeah, exactly.

HOLLY
What do you think though? Do our bodies crave calories first or is that like an evolution thing? What do you think?

KEISHA
I don't know. That's an interesting question. I don't know. I find the idea of like cravings really interesting. Especially like, you know, everyone has cravings and you can have cravings for so many different things. I think people typically go to this idea of sweets, right? You crave sweets, but sometimes I crave salty things. Sometimes I crave lettuce and it typically is because I'm thirsty. Usually I've discovered that when I crave lettuce, it's because I'm thirsty.

JOE
Interesting. I'm going to keep an eye on that.

KEISHA
But yeah, I don't know in terms of calories. Again, I really like to break it down into this idea that they're energy, because I think especially with like diet culture and all these things, calories have been pretty demonized to this thing that, you know, just makes you gain weight. And that's the only thing they're there for. And to lose weight, you have to eat less calories, which isn't necessarily, you know, which is true. But, you know, when you break it down, calories are energy, right? I don't know if we can consider it a scientific name, but kilocalories, Kcal, is like the name of calories for energy. Our bodies need it. Same with glucose, right? Like sugar, people think of sugar and they, you know, yeah, but glucose is what our body runs on. It's what our brain runs on, right? Our muscles and our brain could not function without glucose. And that's, you know, if you think about it in that very scientific form, I guess, it is a lot easier to wrap your head around and kind of remove all those fears. So, yeah, I don't really think that answered your question per se. But yeah, I'm not sure about craving in terms of calories, but I think that's a really interesting question and it's going to make me think.

HOLLY
We were talking about it the other day, too. It is a fascinating one because it's like why? Because I think a lot of people is like, I don't know, when I hear someone who is food insecure, like it's more about the calories. And I wonder if there is, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I think it's an interesting one.

KEISHA
Yeah, I think that's a great point. If you think about, like, food insecurity and calories, because, you know, like, especially at the beginning of people coming into our buildings, my priority is not to teach them about healthy and not healthy foods or, hey, you shouldn't eat. It's just like, just eat. Let's just get you to eating, you know, three meals a day. That is our goal. Regardless of what they are, let's just get it that you are regularly eating three meals a day. And then once that's consistent and, you know, you have the tools to be able to do that and you're not worried about whether or not you're going to be able to have three meals a day, then we'll move on to focusing on what those meals are. But until we get to that point, the priority is just making sure that you are getting enough food that you can function in your day.

JOE
100%.

HOLLY
Yeah.

JOE
Well, okay, processed food works on a systems level. When we look at our processed foods, we know that, you know, there's a branding, there's a logistics, and there's a marketing. Where, when we look at healthy and nutritious foods, what's their backbone?

KEISHA
I think the people who are growing it, right? Like the farmers and those people who are, you know, spending their days and their livelihood and, you know, have such a strong passion to make that food available for us. Something that I am really interested in is these food service organizations that will sell the kind of bad and ugly produce.

JOE
Right, yeah!

KEISHA
It's interesting to me that just because like an apple looks a little odd or a potato is a weird shape, it is thrown away. It's considered garbage when it literally is the exact same as the apple that looks perfect. And yeah, I think that's really interesting because not only does it help accessibility for the people consuming the food, but it helps the farmers as well, right? They're not losing all of this, you know, produce that they've spent, like I said, their day, their livelihood that they're passionate about growing. 

HOLLY
Right.

KEISHA
That's just going in the garbage because the grocery store said that's ugly and I don't like it.

JOE
That apple has character.

KEISHA
Yeah. Exactly. That apple could be the most nutritious apple you've ever had in your entire life. It could be literally the best apple in the world, and you're just throwing it away because, you know, it has a little lump or something.

JOE
Don't judge that apple.

HOLLY
Consumerism is interesting.

KEISHA
It's beautiful on the inside. 

HOLLY
Leave him alone. Let him live. Oh my goodness. Yeah, I completely agree. Sometimes a healthy diet isn't always about the money. It's about time and lifestyle. If someone's working crazy hours or super busy, how are they supposed to eat more healthy? It's a big one.

KEISHA
I'm a big...

HOLLY
Okay.

KEISHA
I don't like doing it, but I am an advocate for meal planning.

JOE
Okay.

KEISHA
Which I think, you know, time and such does not necessarily always agree with that idea, but I do think that, you know, if you have time within your day, even if it's just like a couple hours on the weekend to go to the grocery store, just prep as much of the food that you get as you can. And I also think, you know, I tend to try to promote like a 70-30 rule. So I feel like when people think about eating healthy, it's like I have to eat healthy all the time. I can't eat any junk. I can't eat any processed foods. I can't eat anything bad for me. I just need to eat healthy constantly, which is not true and not realistic and not necessarily a mentally or emotionally healthy way of living, right? So I think if you can make your lunches or your dinners as healthy as possible, then you're doing great. And, you know, there's no expectation that you have to eat perfectly all the time by any means. I also really like leaning on Canada's food guide because I think- especially the updated one, I think that it is- I really like the changes that they made because I think it makes it a lot more realistic and a lot easier for people to wrap their heads around as opposed to like, OK, I have to get this many servings of this, this many servings of this, like that can be very overwhelming. But just knowing that, you know, you have your plate. If you have half of the vegetables, a quarter of it protein, a quarter of it, you know, grains or starches, then you're good. Like, it doesn't matter what those things are. If you just follow that, then you're eating healthy. And I think encouraging that idea of don't necessarily focus on, do I have enough leafy greens? Do I have enough, you know, of this? Do I have enough, you know, red meat? Do I have enough lean meats? No, just, you know, you have a protein, you have your grain and you have your vegetables and you're good. 

HOLLY
Keeping it simple.

KEISHA
Yeah, that's it. Keeping it simple, not complicating it. I think that there's a lot of, a lot of, I kind of think about social media that's just like pushing for it to be very complicated. You know, even with meal prep, here's what I meal prep in a week and it's, you know, 75 meals and they're really intricate. And you're like, how do you have the time or energy or money to buy all of that food and then just, you know, produce it all? And usually it's, you know, because that's like kind of their only job.

HOLLY
Right, just influencing and yeah.

KEISHA
Exactly.

HOLLY
It's a little bit unrealistic too.

KEISHA
A hundred percent.

HOLLY
It's just like, yeah, how can you, yeah.

KEISHA
Yeah, I find it hard.

HOLLY
A little bit weird pressure to like almost eat so fancy, but it's like, use what you have. And if you can grow for yourself, you can make it even fancier.

KEISHA
A hundred percent.

HOLLY
Like really, that's how I look at it.

KEISHA
Yeah, that's why I think food exposure is really important for that as well. Making sure that people know of all the different foods that they are, that are available to them and how to utilize them. At the building that I primarily work at, Embassy Commons, when I was doing frontline work, we utilize the London Good Food Box, which is like a bag, that bag of fruits and vegetables that you get each month. And I gave one to a tenant and they opened it up and they pulled it a bunch of stuff and they pulled out an avocado and they were like, what is this? And I was like, oh, it's an avocado. And they're like, oh, what's that? And so I like explained to them what it was. I showed them how to open it, showed them, you know, different. I was like, this is, you know, guacamole typically is, you know, kind of the first thing people think of when they think of avocados, avocado toast. And they're like, oh, wow, this is really good. I've never even heard of an avocado before. And now, you know, they have this in their repertoire. Now when they go to the grocery store and they see the avocados are on sale, they can choose to buy an avocado instead of something that's full price because they know what it is. Right?

HOLLY
It's really interesting. It kind of leads me to this question I had like in the back of my head, just the connection between food security and food literacy. You're kind of talking about it already, but I just, yeah, I want to emphasize the importance of that. And could you go into a little bit more about like food literacy for some people that don't understand what that maybe means?

KEISHA
Yeah, for sure. So when I think of food literacy, I think of this idea of like utilization. Right? So you can have the food security in the sense of like the accessibility, it's affordable, you know, it's healthy, it's all of these things. But if you, you know, throw it all on your counter and you don't know what to do with it, then that's still a barrier, right? Yes. Then you're stuck having all the food, but you don't know how to consume it. Right. And so I think that food literacy I think of utilization and having the knowledge to be able to actually use the food that you have. And not even just in terms of the food itself, but even having the supplies to properly prepare the food and knowing how to use those different supplies, right? Knowing how to use them safely also.

HOLLY
Yeah 100%.

KEISHA
That's priority as well.

JOE
Safety is important.

KEISHA
Exactly. Yeah, or even like food storage. You know, maybe you make a really delicious meal and you make a lot of it and you want to save it, but you don't know how to save it in a way that's going to, you know, food safety and make it last and all of those things, right? So when we do the work that we do at Indwell, we actually have a list of kind of what we consider food literacy that we see most often in our tenants. And I like to say that the role that we're doing is identifying the gaps within their food literacy and then filling those gaps. So that one that I said is a perfect example. Maybe someone's good at grocery shopping, they know how to cook, but they only know, you know, four out of the billions of vegetables that exist in the world. And so they can only consume those four because they don't know how to use the other ones. Yeah, so I think that it's important to consider that as well. You know, you can give somebody all the access in the world, but you also have to give them the tools to be able to utilize the stuff that you're giving them. 

HOLLY
100%.

JOE
Utilization. You used this word.

KEISHA
Yeah.

JOE
It's a very good word.

KEISHA
Thank you.

JOE
And we talked about food deserts, so I'm going to kind of go back a little bit. When we look at urban planning, do you feel that urban planning has a part to play, positive or negative, in the inaccessibility of food, in what I would maybe use the word epidemic?

KEISHA
I would say so, for sure. I think that even, you know, utilization, like we said, it is also the growing and that accessibility piece, right? When we think of the food and agriculture, their definition of food security, they have their four pillars. Accessibility, availability, stability, and utilization, right? So all those things go hand in hand, especially the stability piece, too. Having a sustainable food system, sustainable agriculture, sustainable, you know, things in place to make sure that people stay food secure, right? I feel like that lends itself to urban planning. Like, you know, we can do all this stuff, have all the access, have all these different things, but if it's only going to last during the summer season when farmers markets are, you know, open, then what happens when, you know, it's not those times and then people become food insecure again? That stability isn't there, right? Yeah.

HOLLY
Do you think indoor farming plays a role in food deserts?

KEISHA
A hundred percent. Yeah. 

HOLLY
A huge role.

KEISHA
We have a new project coming up at the Vision Soho building that we're doing. We're making a community food hub. It's being supported by the London Food Bank. And one of the things that we've talked about is how to do, like, indoor gardening. 

HOLLY
Amazing.

KEISHA
Not farming, but indoor gardening. And have that accessible to people because it definitely, like, such a big barrier that I think is easily solvable, right? Like, there is an easy solution for those things.

HOLLY
It's just getting more education than two people.

KEISHA
A hundred percent.

HOLLY
And know-how almost in gardening. I think when you bring it indoors, too, I think people get really freaked out a little bit because we've been just, like, without that. Like, almost that relationship's kind of been severed a little bit with nature. So bringing it indoors almost seems so, like, foreign to everybody. And it's just like, yeah, it's a little bit interesting. But once you get people into it and understanding, it's actually much simpler than you'd think.

KEISHA
Yeah. I like to hope that people feel like people are really into plants lately, like house plants. I feel like with the pandemic, it was very like, oh, I'm going to buy a bunch of plants. It's like, oh, why don't you just, like, take a little step further? You're almost there. You're so close. So you can eat it. Yeah. It'd be perfect. Imagine. Yeah.

JOE
Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

HOLLY
I feel like that was my biggest focus during COVID as well. It's just like, oh, my gosh, I can eat the food that I'm growing and I can grow whatever I want. And they need the same light and they need the same kind of nutrients and they need the same kind of pot and soil. It's like perfect.

KEISHA
Yeah.

HOLLY
It was kind of like hand-in-hand.

JOE
But yeah, it's very interesting.

HOLLY
Is there anything that you want to talk about that we maybe didn't touch on or ask you about?

KEISHA
I do want to quickly highlight the, it's just like a little off, slightly off Kilter, but not really, the Middlesex London Food Policy Council, which I am a part of. I just want to give them a quick shout out because I think they're doing great work. And we have a couple of things like coming down the pipeline to get the community more involved, which I think lends itself to what we've been talking about, about community and giving people the power back to be able to make themselves food secure, not food insecure.

JOE
Right.

KEISHA
Yeah, I think of agency, right? You can't have the rest of the food security principles without having agency, the ability to do it for yourself. Yeah. So yeah, just wanted to give them a little shout out. I think they're doing great work and it's great to be part of that group.

JOE
Thank you.

KEISHA
Yay.

JOE
Awesome.

JOE
I have, actually I have two more questions for you.

KEISHA
Okay.

JOE
And I'm going to go back to urban planning one last time. Do you feel accessible and affordable housing creates a less or more cohesive infrastructure for communities with food security?

KEISHA
That's a really good question. I'm going to say yes. I think that accessible- when you think of like basic needs, right? If you don't have shelter, the rest of the stuff you're not thinking about.

HOLLY
Yeah.

KEISHA
Often we see when our tenants come into our buildings, like I said, they're usually coming from homelessness or have, are in some sort of housing situation that's very poor or at risk of losing their housing. Food and food security is often very much on the bottom of their priorities list.

JOE
Yeah.

KEISHA
They're in survival mode, right? So it takes a little bit for them to kind of adjust to having stable housing and understanding that it's not going to just disappear in like four months, like the rest of their lives it has been like. And obviously there's the affordability piece as well on top of that. They realize, oh, now I actually have a little bit of money left over from my monthly check to buy food that has never happened before because all of my money has been going to my rent. I have this stable home where I have a kitchen and I have these resources to be able to cook in my kitchen. You know, I have a place to sleep. I have a community that I can rely on. So now I can think about my food security. I can actually think about foods that I like to eat instead of just getting something because I need some sort of food. So yeah, I think that it plays such a big role in making that something that they can actually think about and start to work towards.

JOE
It's a hard way for us to learn that as a community.

HOLLY
100%.

JOE
We have one final question.

KEISHA
OK.

JOE
What keeps you growing?

KEISHA
I think my work, honestly. I used to say when I was in my undergrad that I always wanted a job that was like school, which sounds kind of weird, and a job where I was helping people. In school, there is a pretty big focus on becoming a registered dietitian and going into a clinical nutrition setting. But when I got the chance to learn more about community nutrition, I was just blown away, and I was like, this is it for me. I want to teach people. I want to give people, like I said, their power back. Give them the ability to do these things for themselves, build community, and see the lasting impact that it has on their lives. And I'm able to do that every single day.

JOE
Wonderful. 

HOLLY
That's so lovely. So powerful. I love it.

KEISHA
Thank you.

HOLLY
Where can people find out more about your work and about Indwell?

KEISHA
Yeah. So we have social media. Indwell.ca, I think, is what we are on Instagram. But Indwell.ca is our website also. So you can check us out there. We would love for people who can give to help us build buildings and run programs. That would be awesome. We also love volunteers. So people have passions or things that they really want to share, things that they really like to do, and they want to share that with their tenants. We are more than happy to have volunteers. We also think it helps reduce some stigma and kind of build community and not have kind of an us-and-them mentality. So yeah, if you want to learn more, not only just by going to our website, but kind of actually be in it, volunteer.

HOLLY
Yay, I'll mention that in the show notes at the end too.

KEISHA
Awesome. Thank you. 

HOLLY
Yeah, no problem. 

ADAM
If you like this show, please like and subscribe on YouTube and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. We're preparing a bunch of special extras for our fresh and nutritious newsletter subscribers. Sign up for free at GrowAbilityPod .com.

GrowAbility is hosted by Joe Gansevles and Holly Pugsley.

Special thanks to this week's guest, Keisha Joseph.

Our show is produced by Adam Caplan, Joe Gansevles, and Holly Pugsley.

Production support from Oliver Gansevles, Evan Gansevles, Scott Hohn, Kevin Labont, Paul Rogers, Dorentina Uka, and Alan Williamson.

Holly Pugsley of Just Keep Growing art directed this episode and made sure the plants looked great.

Audience strategy by Dorentina Uka and Tess Alcock.

Our theme music is Wandering William by Adrian Walther and can be found on Soundstripe.

Adam Caplan, that's me, is web.isod.es Executive Producer, and Sammy Orlowski is our Senior Creator.

Thanks to TechAlliance of Southwestern Ontario, including Farida Abdelnabi and Sarah Edmondson, for letting us shoot at their beautiful offices.

Special thanks to Leigh Ann Gansevles for the support and yummy food, Hubert Orlowski for helping our podcast sound great, and Gabor Sass for making some great introductions.

GrowAbility is a web.isod.es production and is produced with the support and participation of the team at The PATCH and Hutton House.